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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 1:25:44 GMT
Going back to the idea of Bael disguising himself as a "singer"...
Is Bael a skinchanger? A Bloodraven type that can slip into just about anything?
We know that at least one of the CotF had come south of the Wall since Aegon's conquest - how many visited before that?
If the Bael event occurred over a thousand years ago, and maybe more, perhaps the Starks were in the habit of welcoming the Children into Winterfell?
I guess my point is, Lord Stark may have asked the Old Gods for help (in continuing his line), just as Howland prayed to them at Harrenhal...and when a "singer" arrived at his home, he welcomed Bael in. Instead, Bael the deceiver turned out to be a different sort of god.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 1:37:19 GMT
I guess my point is, Lord Stark may have asked the Old Gods for help (in continuing his line), just as Howland prayed to them at Harrenhal...and when a "singer" arrived at his home, he welcomed Bael in. Instead, Bael the deceiver turned out to be a different sort of god. I like where this is going, since Mance was trickstering as Abel. And we do have suspicions that the CotF and men interbred....
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 1:49:43 GMT
And we do have suspicions that the CotF and men interbred.... And any offspring would certainly qualify as Magical Special Babies™. Plus, if the line is dying out, what better way to get a high five from the Old Gods in answer to a prayer? Send an emissary to sing the "song" that results in a supercharged non-diluted extra-Starky baby.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 1:59:11 GMT
Since we were talking about this in the other thread, that maybe Lyanna was either being skinchanged or she was a skinchanger herself, I'm reminded of an old thread I made somewhere about what Child of Three means, and I figure that it means one of the parents was either a skinchanger or being skinchanged.
Really liking this direction with the CotF being involved
So yes lol
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 2:17:15 GMT
And any offspring would certainly qualify as Magical Special Babies™. Plus, if the line is dying out, what better way to get a high five from the Old Gods in answer to a prayer? Send an emissary to sing the "song" that results in a supercharged non-diluted extra-Starky baby. The proximity of Lyanna to the God's Eye makes my radar go off when we consider this
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 2:21:20 GMT
And any offspring would certainly qualify as Magical Special Babies™. Plus, if the line is dying out, what better way to get a high five from the Old Gods in answer to a prayer? Send an emissary to sing the "song" that results in a supercharged non-diluted extra-Starky baby. The proximity of Lyanna to the God's Eye makes my radar go off when we consider this Omg. thought. Circling back to the Cotati and the Celestial Madonna - the Cotati needed the perfect woman to make the perfect child with the perfect tree. The Stark/Bael tale is about the line of House Stark dying out. INVERT IT.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 2:45:31 GMT
The proximity of Lyanna to the God's Eye makes my radar go off when we consider this Omg. thought. Circling back to the Cotati and the Celestial Madonna - the Cotati needed the perfect woman to make the perfect child with the perfect tree. The Stark/Bael tale is about the line of House Stark dying out. INVERT IT. Was the Pact about interbreeding after all? Where were we talking about the CotF talking about their breeding habits, long lives etc and Fevre Dream's vampires?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 2:48:04 GMT
uhhhh.... iono. I've lost track in the Great Ideas Blitzkrieg of 2017. Search function!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 3:08:56 GMT
strange, can't find on a search, but I do have the screenshot of GRRM's Fevre dream where he talks about it...
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 10:30:51 GMT
When you imagine Bael as one of the Children of the Forest...a singer...it seems to make more sense. Especially the part about the Lord of Winterfell's reaction after his daughter goes missing. If he knew Bael was a singer it would be a natural conclusion to think he took her beyond the Wall.
I was also thinking about the part where she jumps from a tower. Is this the process to open the third eye? Bran was pushed and fell from a tower, and Euron speaks about jumping from a tower to find out if he could fly...but maybe the important aspect of jumping from a tower is the descension and the near death experience?
Hoping Some Pig expands on her post above about the Cotati and the Celestial Madonna, creating the perfect child, and what the inversion might be with regards to the Stark line.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 12:44:46 GMT
Concentrating on just this part of the story, is it just me or does it seem that there is a possibility that the Stark maid had two children? One with her father and a second son with "Bael"? If so could this correspond with another tale that the history books do teach? One that deals with two Stark brothers fighting a King of the North and one of the Stark brothers being slain? Lightbulb moment. This plus mama direwolf and Ghost. Of COURSE she had two children... at the same time. Twins. Perhaps with different fathers, as is common in dogs and as Weasel Pie and I have been yapping about since Heresy of yon. Littermates. One human to keep to continue the bloodline, one ... half human...to be taken as payment.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 13:29:50 GMT
Hoping Some Pig expands on her post above about the Cotati and the Celestial Madonna, creating the perfect child, and what the inversion might be with regards to the Stark line. Actually, what I had in mind was similar to what I posted above - in the Bael story, the line was dying out - Lord Stark needed an heir. He perhaps preyed to the Old Gods to get one. In current time, Leaf tells Bran that the CotF are few in number, and their days are dwindling. THEIR line is dying...but "the direwolves will outlast us all". What if THEY need the infusion? The Starks are the last hope for their line? Anyway, re: the Bael tale, that may be the arrangement - one normal-but-incest baby to continue the Stark bloodline, one half-human child of a different father to be given to/taken with the father to continue doing...whatever it is they're doing. Child of three. Will have to play with this re: Rhaegar and the abduction today.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 14:22:12 GMT
Bear with me a second guys since I know my Bran=KotLT theory is whacko but... I swear this is on topic. We know Howland hung out with the Green Men for however long. GRRM has been cagey about the Isle of Faces, but what exactly would the Green Men be teaching him? The island is where The Pact was signed, it's rumored that some CotF still survive there along with a grove of weirwood etc. We know BR was probably involved with Howland. We know many of the CotF are skinchangers. Etc. So doesn't it make sense that they were training him to be a vessel? Just like Bael was a vessel for a "singer." Or like Abel disguised himself as a singer. Couple of other things. They're dappled like deer Some Pig No Doubt . And... Will have to play with this re: Rhaegar and the abduction today. What if Rhaegar was trained as a vessel? What exactly happened at Summerhall? What did he read in those scrolls? Why did he go hellbent for Harrenhal the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces? Was Lyanna on the Isle of Faces when she was "not far from Harrenhal"? I know I'm all over the place lately, these are all such exciting new thoughts - or old ones finding their place as the case may be PS ALWAYS on board with the superfecundity theory, children by different fathers at the same time. Please factor in that it's "bad" to mate wolf with wolf while warging. HEH. But that I think that's how Ghost was created, via BR - not as the father of all the pups, just Ghost.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2017 14:28:28 GMT
Concentrating on just this part of the story, is it just me or does it seem that there is a possibility that the Stark maid had two children? One with her father and a second son with "Bael"? If so could this correspond with another tale that the history books do teach? One that deals with two Stark brothers fighting a King of the North and one of the Stark brothers being slain? Lightbulb moment. This plus mama direwolf and Ghost. Of COURSE she had two children... at the same time. Twins. Perhaps with different fathers, as is common in dogs and as Weasel Pie and I have been yapping about since Heresy of yon. Littermates. One human to keep to continue the bloodline, one ... half human...to be taken as payment. And each child can arguably be called a child of three since two different fathers conceived a child with the same mother. It's a fairly common trope in Greek mythology twins being born to one mother but each having a different father. See Heracles and Iphicles, twins who's mother was Alcmene, but each twin had a different father. Heracles' father was Zeus, while Iphicles' father was Amphitryon, the mortal husband of Alcmene.
This scenario is also repeated with the Gemeni twins, Castor and Pollux (the horse twins, heh). Their mother was Leda, but Castor's father was Tyndareus, while Pollux's father was Zeus.
It's called Heteropaternal superfecundation, the fertilization of two or more ova from the same cycle by sperm from separate acts of intercourse by two different fathers.
eta ninjaed by Weaselpie
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2017 15:20:28 GMT
Fast forwarding the idea of twins born to one mother with two different fathers to Lyanna. Let's assume that the initial father is Brandon. Who would the second father be? The knee jerk reaction is Rhaegar, but I remain skeptical, that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had sex. My guess is that the second father may have been Howland Reed.
While Rhaegar superficially fits the role of Bael, since both sang and handed out blue roses, Rhaegar doesn't fit it in one very important sense. Rhaegar was never given guest rights with the Starks. He was never invited to their table as Bael was. Howland however, was invited to sit at the Stark's table during the Harrenhal tourney. He was also in a position to cultivate a relationship with Lyanna, Rhaegar was never in such a position.
Lyanna also disappeared around the God's Eye, a location very tied into Howland Reed and the Green Men. So could Lyanna's twin children be Jon, born of Lyanna and Brandon, and Meera, born of Lyanna and Howland??
Lyanna's pregnancy comes to Rhaegar's attention, and he kidnaps her for her child (or in this case children), as a sacrifice or sacrifices at the tower of joy.
This is the description given of Queenscrown where Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor hid. Later, Jon and Ygritte stand at the edge of the lake and look upon the tower where unbeknownst to them, Bran and company were hiding. In other words Meera was in the tower, while her twin, Jon was across the lake from her. In the meantime a hellacious storm was brewing and Hodor was going absolutely batshit crazy.
Then refer back to Robert's deathbed scene, where the promises he elicited from Ned creates echoes of the promises that Lyanna elicited from Ned.
Robert's condition could have been very similar to Lyanna's if it required a C-section to open her up during the birthing process.
In other words, the girl, Meera, is at the tower of joy, she is slated to be sacrificed, talk to the Kingsguards, don't let them kill her. But Jon on the other hand:
Did Lyanna want Ned to kill the product of her abomination? The result of her affair with Brandon? Or could you read it another way, she wanted Ned to take Jon in? Eat the bastard? Legitimize him and make him part of Winterfell? Don't care if you choke on him. No matter how it affects Ned and his family, Jon is the rightful heir of Winterfell, the only son, of the first born son of Lord Rickard.
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