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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 15:27:08 GMT
I'm on board with the twins idea and even the two fathers of Brandon and Howland, because I think Howland was in cahoots with the Children in creating their special magic baby. He's probably the identity of the "Tree" that Some Pig has been posting about. The part I disagree with is Rhaegar. I remain unconvinced that he had anything to do with the kidnapping. I think he was busy down south hiding his heir, Aegon and when he returned he was totally confused that anyone would think he had anything to do with Lyanna's kidnapping. I still believe Cersei arranged for Lyanna to be kidnapped and killed to prevent a marriage to Robert. The old gods may have arranged her pregnancy, but they didn't want her killed. She was the rabbit/deer/prey that the "beasts" fell upon and she was "shook" like a predator shakes their prey before eating it.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2017 16:44:19 GMT
I'm on board with the twins idea and even the two fathers of Brandon and Howland, because I think Howland was in cahoots with the Children in creating their special magic baby. He's probably the identity of the "Tree" that Some Pig has been posting about. The part I disagree with is Rhaegar. I remain unconvinced that he had anything to do with the kidnapping. I think he was busy down south hiding his heir, Aegon and when he returned he was totally confused that anyone would think he had anything to do with Lyanna's kidnapping. I still believe Cersei arranged for Lyanna to be kidnapped and killed to prevent a marriage to Robert. The old gods may have arranged her pregnancy, but they didn't want her killed. She was the rabbit/deer/prey that the "beasts" fell upon and she was "shook" like a predator shakes their prey before eating it. I'm not 100% sure Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but I do think that he, or one of his cohorts kidnapped one or more of Lyanna's children. I think this is the main reason that Ned went to the tower of joy to put a stop to the events there. The fact that Lyanna may have known what their plan was, makes me think that she was with Rhaegar or some of Rhaegar's allies for a time.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 17:09:08 GMT
So much to say but of course not possible from phone. But yes, howland is part of the tree baby equation. Child of the old gods.
And yes , twins ripping Lyanna open. Like Zeus springing from Minerva's head.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 17:25:09 GMT
I'm on board with the twins idea and even the two fathers of Brandon and Howland, because I think Howland was in cahoots with the Children in creating their special magic baby. He's probably the identity of the "Tree" that Some Pig has been posting about. The part I disagree with is Rhaegar. I remain unconvinced that he had anything to do with the kidnapping. I think he was busy down south hiding his heir, Aegon and when he returned he was totally confused that anyone would think he had anything to do with Lyanna's kidnapping. I still believe Cersei arranged for Lyanna to be kidnapped and killed to prevent a marriage to Robert. The old gods may have arranged her pregnancy, but they didn't want her killed. She was the rabbit/deer/prey that the "beasts" fell upon and she was "shook" like a predator shakes their prey before eating it. I'm not 100% sure Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but I do think that he, or one of his cohorts kidnapped one or more of Lyanna's children. I think this is the main reason that Ned went to the tower of joy to put a stop to the events there. The fact that Lyanna may have known what their plan was, makes me think that she was with Rhaegar or some of Rhaegar's allies for a time. Ashara could have filled in Ned with the same info you're suggesting. The scenerio I have in mind for Ned to bring him south was simply to return Dawn to Starfall. He wasn't expecting an attack at the tower of joy. It was just along the way. Bloodraven is to blame for the recurring fever dream, although Ned realizes it's a dream and not how the actual events played out. He compare the dream to real life, but we only get to read the dream account and not the real one so we fill in the blanks with what makes sense to us. There's no doubt he somehow came upon Arthur Dayne, but I think the single combat story is just that: a story. Arthur was with Ashara when they met up with Ned - cue Fisherman's Daughter story. Arthur was the Fisherman father that "died", and returning the sword to Starfall would ensure the story seemed true. Howland likely came up with the plan and that's how he ends up getting credited.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 18:30:32 GMT
So could Lyanna's twin children be Jon, born of Lyanna and Brandon, and Meera, born of Lyanna and Howland?? When I consider the twin theory - which I love - I sort of vacillate between Meera or Dany as the twin, mostly because I see so much horse imagery and quasi-warg with Dany, as well as some things in her HoTU vision. But the business at the Queenscrown points directly to Meera, great catch there.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 18:34:15 GMT
I think Howland was in cahoots with the Children in creating their special magic baby. He's probably the identity of the "Tree" that Some Pig has been posting about. I think for sure that Howland was the KotLT but he was being occupied by Bran, who was testing out his tardiswarging on a newly trained vessel. Even if you don't think it was Bran, Howland got some kind of help from the "trees" when he begged the old gods for help. I think Rhaegar was involved because he wanted the baby, not Lyanna, and I think it's entirely probable that Lyanna willingly went along, otherwise she would have gotten word out that she was alive and well. Had a random thought about Brandon demanding Rhaegar "come out and die" instead of demanding to see Lyanna or be told where she was. Events had already transpired, we've talked about this in the past to possibly mean Lyanna was already dead - tying in with Some Pig No Doubt considering Lyanna had two deaths. I think this somehow means that Brandon himself did not consider Lyanna kidnapped, but rather was angry with Rhaegar for another reason. Spoiling their plans for the baby? Further, back to the eugenics projects, maybe the CotF had tried many times to create this baby thought BRs antics, but it never worked out. Crazy thoughts that the deformed babies of Targ history were the result of "child of three" experiments (one parent being a vessel for BR) that failed? Kicking the tires on that one. Makes me think that BR made a habit of occupying Aerys and could even have fathered Tyrion, who also ripped open his mother at birth - making Tyrion also a child of three along with Jon and Dany. Also a reminded that BR and the CotF were waiting for Bran.... AND the Reed kids AND Hodor, so not only Bran is important to the puzzle. If Meera is Jon's twin, her inclusion makes utter sense.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 19:25:46 GMT
I think for sure that Howland was the KotLT but he was being occupied by Bran, who was testing out his tardiswarging on a newly trained vessel. Even if you don't think it was Bran, Howland got some kind of help from the "trees" when he begged the old gods for help. I think I was one of the earliest promoters of the idea of skinchanging for a couple of years. My old Westeros thread on the subject ended up getting locked and then deleted after the trolls turned it into a "shouting" match, and the upgrades left me with no archive. I had initially thought Ned was skinchanging Howland or Howland was "riding" inside Ned, but now I agree that Lyanna was somehow involved. No doubt in my mind that the old gods helped Howland win. I think Rhaegar was involved because he wanted the baby, not Lyanna, and I think it's entirely probable that Lyanna willingly went along, otherwise she would have gotten word out that she was alive and well. I can see how the reasoning that Rhaegar wanted this child could be logical, but it doesn't seem to fit his personality or the way people close to him remember him. But I don't think Lyanna was alive when Jon was born. Ned's memories include a black palm, like Coldhands, but Ned didn't seem to be looking for her. His exchanges with Robert seem to imply that he knew where she was and that she was dead by the time he went to the Trident. Had a random thought about Brandon demanding Rhaegar "come out and die" instead of demanding to see Lyanna or be told where she was. Events had already transpired, we've talked about this in the past to possibly mean Lyanna was already dead - tying in with Some Pig No Doubt considering Lyanna had two deaths. I think this somehow means that Brandon himself did not consider Lyanna kidnapped, but rather was angry with Rhaegar for another reason. Spoiling their plans for the baby? When Brandon went to Kings Landing he assumed Rhaegar was involved, because I suspect Littlefinger told him that he was. Like I've already posited before, Cersei arranged for Lyanna to be kidnapped and Rhaegar framed. Littlefinger must have been included or knew about the details and wanting revenge on Brandon he propagated the lie. How else did he work his way up the ladder? He was rewarded for his part in the charade. Further, back to the eugenics projects, maybe the CotF had tried many times to create this baby thought BRs antics, but it never worked out. Crazy thoughts that the deformed babies of Targ history were the result of "child of three" experiments (one parent being a vessel for BR) that failed? Kicking the tires on that one. Makes me think that BR made a habit of occupying Aerys and could even have fathered Tyrion, who also ripped open his mother at birth - making Tyrion also a child of three along with Jon and Dany. I can see the above being true. And maybe when you give birth to a magic baby they do damage the mother, causing death? It does seem like the mothers of these magic babies do end up dying, although would the Children snare Lyanna as a breeding "rabbit" if it could only be done once? Also a reminded that BR and the CotF were waiting for Bran.... AND the Reed kids AND Hodor, so not only Bran is important to the puzzle. If Meera is Jon's twin, her inclusion makes utter sense. Bran may be the only person with the ability to destroy their plans, so I do tend to think they're holding him hostage without his realizing it yet.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 13, 2017 19:40:45 GMT
To keep in mind re: the other child--
Am reminded of Ned and "the child you stole".....w/r/ t Ashara
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 20:19:18 GMT
My old Westeros thread on the subject ended up getting locked and then deleted after the trolls turned it into a "shouting" match, and the upgrades left me with no archive. I had initially thought Ned was skinchanging Howland or Howland was "riding" inside Ned, but now I agree that Lyanna was somehow involved. No doubt in my mind that the old gods helped Howland win. Amazing how something so central to the story gets bashed over there, I've seen it happen. I think it's the only explanation for the KotLT. But I don't think Lyanna was alive when Jon was born. Ned's memories include a black palm, like Coldhands, but Ned didn't seem to be looking for her. His exchanges with Robert seem to imply that he knew where she was and that she was dead by the time he went to the Trident. "alive and well" is a matter of interpretation I'm leaning towards this too of course. Littlefinger must have been included or knew about the details and wanting revenge on Brandon he propagated the lie. I do like this, since I've been trying to nail Petyr for being BAELish with Lyanna.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2017 20:36:04 GMT
So could Lyanna's twin children be Jon, born of Lyanna and Brandon, and Meera, born of Lyanna and Howland?? When I consider the twin theory - which I love - I sort of vacillate between Meera or Dany as the twin, mostly because I see so much horse imagery and quasi-warg with Dany, as well as some things in her HoTU vision. But the business at the Queenscrown points directly to Meera, great catch there. I agree that Dany's skinchanger like attachment to her horse does raise an eyebrow. However, I think it's more likely that Dany's mother would be Ahsara. I think GRRM brings up all of the Targaryen offshoots from their main line for a reason. The Targaryens lost their link to the dragons after the Dance. Which is also when the Targaryens stopped either the incestuous marriages, or their marriages with another dragon riding family, the Velaryons. Their bloodlines got "diluted" with the Rogaires, Martells, Daynes, and Blackwoods. Plus the main branch at the time of the rebellion comes from a Targaryen who was unable to hatch a dragon, Viserys II.
My guess is we're going to find out that Dany's mother had some of the bloodlines that sprung off from the main branch. Perhaps a mixture of Velaryions, Plumms, Blackfyre, Hightowers, ect., that ended up being integrated into House Dayne. In other words I think House Dayne's purple eyes, may be a more recent phenomena. So somehow, someway, Dany's bloodlines regained the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror.
I think Dany may have been the key ingredient to Rhaegar's plan. Someone who had the necessary bloodlines to actually hatch the dragons. Her birth was probably the one they were waiting on to finish their plans at the toj.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 13, 2017 20:38:13 GMT
My old Westeros thread on the subject ended up getting locked and then deleted after the trolls turned it into a "shouting" match, and the upgrades left me with no archive. I had initially thought Ned was skinchanging Howland or Howland was "riding" inside Ned, but now I agree that Lyanna was somehow involved. No doubt in my mind that the old gods helped Howland win. Amazing how something so central to the story gets bashed over there, I've seen it happen. I think it's the only explanation for the KotLT. The Westeros forum is really frustrating. You really can't kick around any ideas without getting shouted down by the kool aid drinkers. Obviously not everything we bandy about here is correct, and some of it is a tad crackpot. But sometimes throwing around the crackpot ideas lead to genuine eureka moments.
And lord forbid you deviate at all from their fantasy of Prince Charming and his lady love Lyanna.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 21:00:06 GMT
So somehow, someway, Dany's bloodlines regained the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror.
I think Dany may have been the key ingredient to Rhaegar's plan. Someone who had the necessary bloodlines to actually hatch the dragons. Her birth was probably the one they were waiting on to finish their plans at the toj. The point about the bloodlines is excellent. Do you mean when Rhaegar seems to be looking at Dany in the HotU vision, and talks about the third? Because I agree. Obviously not everything we bandy about here is correct, and some of it is a tad crackpot. But sometimes throwing around the crackpot ideas lead to genuine eureka moments.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 22:10:08 GMT
Am reminded of Ned and "the child you stole".....w/r/ t Ashara Kind of implies that whoever said that...was it Cersei?...knew the child Gregor killed wasn't Aegon. If Ashara's child was the Pisswater Prince AND Dany is her daughter too then she would have had to have had twins also, which tidies up the parallel inversion to Jon and Meera being twins. Parallel "sisters" that both gave birth to twins!
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 22:47:52 GMT
Rethinking Ashara...If Ned impregnated Ashara at Harrenhal tourney, then that child was the Pisswater Prince. If Dany is Ashara's daughter, then she's not a twin, but still a second child for Ashara. Dany's father could still be Aerys since it's said he raped "Rhaella", but if Ashara left Kings Landing disguised as Rhaella, then she's the one that was raped. The only other way I can think of Ashara having twins is if Edric Dayne is Dany's twin.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 13, 2017 23:00:46 GMT
Amazing how something so central to the story gets bashed over there, I've seen it happen. I think it's the only explanation for the KotLT. The Westeros forum is really frustrating. You really can't kick around any ideas without getting shouted down by the kool aid drinkers. Obviously not everything we bandy about here is correct, and some of it is a tad crackpot. But sometimes throwing around the crackpot ideas lead to genuine eureka moments.
And lord forbid you deviate at all from their fantasy of Prince Charming and his lady love Lyanna.
While I can get quite stubborn about certain theories that I love, I'm at least courteous of other theories. And I get excited to offer supporting evidence for someone else's theory, like Weasel's Jon Otherbaby and Bran the Timelord, and Some Pig's Fisherman's Daughter and Bael the Bard. I think the last few days have been astonishing at how our ideas seem to be falling into place. Isn't it amazing how quickly the puzzle is coming together when we support and encourage each other? I was even thinking that when it seems like we've ironed out the logistics to make everything work, that we should combine what have and create one big manifesto of what we think happened pre-Robert's Rebellion - a new timeline of events.
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