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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 13, 2017 23:02:24 GMT
If Ned impregnated Ashara at Harrenhal tourney, then that child was the Pisswater Prince.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2017 0:46:12 GMT
We're moving too fast, I can't keep up! I think we have certainly scratched the surface, yes, but the bulk of the iceberg is still underneath.
I for one still have a lot of circulating ideas to dump re: parallels, Rhaegar, etc.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 1:00:04 GMT
We're moving too fast, I can't keep up! I think we have certainly scratched the surface, yes, but the bulk of the iceberg is still underneath. I for one still have a lot of circulating ideas to dump re: parallels, Rhaegar, etc. Same! Maybe a new thread sort of consolidating the bullet points we've taken away from all our new ideas? Something like that, dunno.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2017 1:37:46 GMT
I can see how the reasoning that Rhaegar wanted this child could be logical, but it doesn't seem to fit his personality or the way people close to him remember him. I've been holding a crackpot about Rhaegar close to my chest because it is so frikking sick and wackadoo that I'm afraid to post it. But. It really is *just* twisted enough for George to go with it, AND it has the bonus of being based on a GRRM-centric real life event. I may need a hidden 'members only' thread for it though.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 2:04:03 GMT
It really is *just* twisted enough for George to go with it I remember first reading GoT and thinking, incest can't possibly be that important to this book, it's just a one time thing right? Can this dude possibly be going there? Nah. *couple chapters later* Yeah. I guess he is going there.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 14, 2017 10:29:01 GMT
I can see how the reasoning that Rhaegar wanted this child could be logical, but it doesn't seem to fit his personality or the way people close to him remember him. I've been holding a crackpot about Rhaegar close to my chest because it is so frikking sick and wackadoo that I'm afraid to post it. But. It really is *just* twisted enough for George to go with it, AND it has the bonus of being based on a GRRM-centric real life event. I may need a hidden 'members only' thread for it though. Is it about the possible attempt to resurrect Rhaegar at tower of joy? I don't think you have anything to fear by posting in the Crackpot section.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 14, 2017 12:40:48 GMT
It really is *just* twisted enough for George to go with it I remember first reading GoT and thinking, incest can't possibly be that important to this book, it's just a one time thing right? Can this dude possibly be going there? Nah. *couple chapters later* Yeah. I guess he is going there. Yea, incest, child sacrifice, cannabilism. George can get pretty dark. Which makes me wonder how so many people can read these books and come to the conclusion that it's about a doomed love affair and ultimately Jon is going to be crowned King of the land, and everything will end happily with a land united by a benign dragon king.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2017 13:18:57 GMT
Is it about the possible attempt to resurrect Rhaegar at tower of joy? No, although that one might be worth revisiting, since we're talking revenants and all. If I have time today, I will work on two different scenarios I have playing in my head: Morally Grey Rhaegar and Sadistic Evil Rhaegar. Also, did someone already mention the possibility of Rhaegar himself being a "child of three", via the funky goings-on at Summerhall? A child was going to be a sacrificial lamb there, I'm sure of it...what I'm not sure of is which child it was - or if there was more than one.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 13:36:38 GMT
Which makes me wonder how so many people can read these books and come to the conclusion that it's about a doomed love affair and ultimately Jon is going to be crowned King of the land, and everything will end happily with a land united by a benign dragon king. lol! But they were in lurve and they got mawwied and their baby Jon is the King and it's totally normal for Jon and Dany to commit incest because the Targs did it all the time and Jon will be a dragon rider and defeat the Others because he is half-Targaryen then he will sit on the Iron Throne and Dany will finally get to have babies...
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 13:41:00 GMT
Also, did someone already mention the possibility of Rhaegar himself being a "child of three", via the funky goings-on at Summerhall? A child was going to be a sacrificial lamb there, I'm sure of it...what I'm not sure of is which child it was - or if there was more than one. I surmised that Bloodraven was experimenting with creating magibabes through the weirnet, and might have been the second father/third parent by inhabiting Aerys. And upthread a bit more on that. But I've always loved your ideas about what happened at Summerhall and I think it would fit right into the current train of thought, so I'm excited to hear where you're going with this.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 14, 2017 14:06:29 GMT
Excited to hear where you're going with this. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, exactly. lol It was something that occurred to me last night as I was thinking about twinning, fire, etc...if the Bael story is about two children, one fathered by a relative and one fathered by 'something else", would this be a possibility for Rhaegar too? I keep thinking of Aemon's "better men than him have done worse things than this". IMO it's pretty clear he's talking about Egg, and possibly Rhaegar too.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 14:41:22 GMT
So I guess we're thinking that the parallels/inversions are the story of Bael and the Stark Maiden/the mystery of Lyanna/the mystery of Summerhall?
Can we add any other events to that list? Maybe Dany's blood-magic ritual and the loss of Rhaego?
Or does Bael tell the Winterfell story and Dany tell the Summerhall story? Nice balance there - of course Summerhall is the inversion of Winterfell?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 14, 2017 15:15:06 GMT
Excited to hear where you're going with this. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, exactly. lol It was something that occurred to me last night as I was thinking about twinning, fire, etc...if the Bael story is about two children, one fathered by a relative and one fathered by 'something else", would this be a possibility for Rhaegar too? I keep thinking of Aemon's "better men than him have done worse things than this". IMO it's pretty clear he's talking about Egg, and possibly Rhaegar too. My main crackpot concerning Rhaegar is that all of Rahella's children are bastards including Rhaegar. In other words Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that he is not the Prince that was Promised because he somehow finds out he is not Aerys' son. In other words, the prophecy doesn't fit him, he is not from the line of Aerys and Rahella.
My next crackpot is why Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that his son, Aegon, is the Prince that was Promised. Because Rahella's lady in waiting that had an affair with Aerys, was not Joanna, it was the Princess of Dorne. I think both Elia and Oberyn might be Aerys'. Which is why Aerys consents to the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. Aerys probably knows he is Elia's father. Which is why Aerys is so disappointed that Elia's first born child is so Dornish. Aerys was hoping her Targaryen half would come forth.
So in other words, if Rhaegar knows that Elia is actually Aerys' love child, and he knows that he is Rahella's love child, then his child with Elia would be from the line of Aerys and Rahella, just not in the usual way.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 14, 2017 15:55:40 GMT
My main crackpot concerning Rhaegar is that all of Rahella's children are bastards including Rhaegar. In other words Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that he is not the Prince that was Promised because he somehow finds out he is not Aerys' son. In other words, the prophecy doesn't fit him, he is not from the line of Aerys and Rahella.
My next crackpot is why Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that his son, Aegon, is the Prince that was Promised. Because Rahella's lady in waiting that had an affair with Aerys, was not Joanna, it was the Princess of Dorne. I think both Elia and Oberyn might be Aerys'. Which is why Aerys consents to the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. Aerys probably knows he is Elia's father. Which is why Aerys is so disappointed that Elia's first born child is so Dornish. Aerys was hoping her Targaryen half would come forth.
So in other words, if Rhaegar knows that Elia is actually Aerys' love child, and he knows that he is Rahella's love child, then his child with Elia would be from the line of Aerys and Rahella, just not in the usual way. This could actually explain quite a lot. And it does confirm that Aegon VI TWTWP lives, and gives more motivation for Rhaegar to send him away for his safety.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 14, 2017 16:20:15 GMT
My main crackpot concerning Rhaegar is that all of Rahella's children are bastards including Rhaegar. In other words Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that he is not the Prince that was Promised because he somehow finds out he is not Aerys' son. In other words, the prophecy doesn't fit him, he is not from the line of Aerys and Rahella.
My next crackpot is why Rhaegar comes to the conclusion that his son, Aegon, is the Prince that was Promised. Because Rahella's lady in waiting that had an affair with Aerys, was not Joanna, it was the Princess of Dorne. I think both Elia and Oberyn might be Aerys'. Which is why Aerys consents to the marriage of Rhaegar and Elia. Aerys probably knows he is Elia's father. Which is why Aerys is so disappointed that Elia's first born child is so Dornish. Aerys was hoping her Targaryen half would come forth.
So in other words, if Rhaegar knows that Elia is actually Aerys' love child, and he knows that he is Rahella's love child, then his child with Elia would be from the line of Aerys and Rahella, just not in the usual way. This could actually explain quite a lot. And it does confirm that Aegon VI TWTWP lives, and gives more motivation for Rhaegar to send him away for his safety. Unfortunately much of the theory is dependent on the World Book, but I'm pretty confident it is from parts supplied by GRRM. Aerys was always suspicious of Rahella having affairs. Aerys chalks up all of her stillbirths and miscarriages on the fact that they were children with other men. Ironically in my theory, the stillbirths and miscarriages may all be her actual children with Aerys. In other words, she may be aborting any children she has with Aerys.
Now you may wonder why, but I think it has to do with the prophecy being forced on her. She knows that the only reason she and Aerys were married was fulfillment of the prophecy. She may be intentionally sabotaging the prophecy by aborting the children she has with Aerys. My guess is any children that were born of one of her affairs, that couldn't pass as a child with Aerys, were secretly sent off to be fostered elsewhere, and she claimed that they died in infancy. The separation between Dragonstone and King's Landing would allow all of this to happen without the King's knowledge. I think the children are born and raised on Dragonstone while Aerys stays in King's Landing allowing the deceptions to continue.
So if Rhaegar gets wind of this, he has to figure out a way to fulfill the prophecy, despite his mother's best efforts to thwart it. The only way he can do it, is to have a child with one of Aerys' bastards.
ETA: I do think that Rhaegar secret smuggled his son out of King's Landing, but I don't think it was for his safety. I still think that Rhaegar intended on sacrificing his own child along with the King's blood children as part of his dragon hatching ritual. But I think Rhaegar believed that his son would be reborn as the hatched dragon. In other words, his son's consciousness, and spirit would be transferred into the dragon. Literally creating a dragon with a Targaryen consciousness. Which I think was the Targaryen's ultimate obsession. Aemon's mention that the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler comes into play. He was referring to a Valyrian sphinx. The body of a dragon with the head of a person. That's what they were trying to figure out how to create a Targaryen resurrected from the ashes as a dragon.
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