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Post by min on Nov 23, 2016 12:27:06 GMT
Course the other things that appeals to me is that Ramsey Snow is Brandon's son by Lady Dustin. He was born in 282 or before. It would be an odd parallel with Ned and Lyanna; another sister fostering her son with her brother; albiet using another subterfuge. Ramsey's ice blue eyes could be another blood trait in the same way that the Starks all have long faces. It appeals to me given Old Nan's stories about the Night King possibly being a Bolton (among others); who was really a Stark. And I wonder if it was Lady Dustin that Bran saw in his vision; the pregnant women in the pool asking the old gods to give her a son to avenge her. Lady Dustin seems satisfied with the way Ramsey turned out and he blurs the lines when it comes to his potential as the next Night's King. So here is somebody who kills all his half brothers and is now going after Jon another Stark. Lady Dustin always wanted to be a Stark and now Ramsey is Lord of Winterfell. Didn't Martin say that Brandon may have left a bastard or two around the place?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 23, 2016 16:40:56 GMT
Course the other things that appeals to me is that Ramsey Snow is Brandon's son by Lady Dustin. I think it's pretty well established that Ramsay looks very much like Roose, though...are you suggesting that Roose and Barbrey had a thing? I would find Barbrey + Brandon = Jon (taken later by Ned) more plausible, if the age thing wasn't an issue. In my calculations, Brandon took his final trip to KL sometime in late Q1 282, so if he had 'relations' with Barbrey sometime right before that, then yes, Lord Ryswell could have arranged a quickie shotgun marriage to Lord Dustin right after Brandon died and Ned was forced to marry Catelyn. If Barbrey was carrying Brandon's baby, it would have been born sometime early 283. However, GRRM has confirmed that Brandon left behind no sons; there's also no mention in the text of Barbrey having a child at all, even one that might have been passed off as Lord Dustin's. Not to say it couldn't have happened and that she could have birthed in secret having made an arrangement beforehand with Ned to take the child, but there are no hints to it (that I have found - if anyone has some, please post). Finally, by the time Cat and Robb got to Winterfell, Jon was already there, still with his wetnurse - if this was after the war's end in late 284, a child born in early 283 would be almost 2yo and probably not still nursing, much less "of an age" with infant Robb. So, while it's possible, I don't see either scenario as likely.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 23, 2016 17:19:56 GMT
Does anyone know what this means: A Storm of Swords - Epilogue Merrett had plenty of fear. His head was pounding too. Much more of this and he'd be sobbing. "You have your gold," he said. "Give me my nephew, and I'll be gone." Petyr was actually more a great half-nephew, but there was no need to go into that.
I will answer this - it's not really a mystery, just the convolutedness of the Frey line. Merrett Frey is Walder's 9th son by his 4th wife. Stevron Frey was Walder's 1st son by his 1st wife. So, Merrett and Stevron are half-brothers. Stevron had a son, Ryman. Ryman is therefore Merrett's half-nephew, despite Ryman being 20 years older than Merrett. Ryman had a son, Petyr. Petyr would then be Merrett's great half-nephew.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 23, 2016 17:53:30 GMT
Does anyone know what this means: A Storm of Swords - Epilogue Merrett had plenty of fear. His head was pounding too. Much more of this and he'd be sobbing. "You have your gold," he said. "Give me my nephew, and I'll be gone." Petyr was actually more a great half-nephew, but there was no need to go into that.
I will answer this - it's not really a mystery, just the convolutedness of the Frey line. Merrett Frey is Walder's 9th son by his 4th wife. Stevron Frey was Walder's 1st son by his 1st wife. So, Merrett and Stevron are half-brothers. Stevron had a son, Ryman. Ryman is therefore Merrett's half-nephew, despite Ryman being 20 years older than Merrett. Ryman had a son, Petyr. Petyr would then be Merrett's great half-nephew.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 23, 2016 18:11:45 GMT
I don't know. It's an interesting proposition, but wouldn't that make Jon considerably older? I think she's resentful towards the Starks for all they've taken from her, but mostly for losing Brandon. When was Brandon betrothed to Catelyn? SomePig did an excellent timeline for you regarding this...not something that is in my wheelhouse, however just going following Brandon's route even if his last night was a few days before going to Riverrun just that trip should take weeks. Wasn't it like 6 weeks from Winterfell to the Wall? How long would Barrowtown to Riverrun take with a stop off at Winterfell to join his father? Also, didn't Brandon go visit Catelyn prior to the wedding day? He had to be there to duel Petyr. Then on his way to get married he "heard about Lyanna" and took off for Kings Landing, and either he had men from the Vale already with him or he went there first. How long would it take to ride from Riverrun to Kings Landing? Then how long to get Rickard to Kings Landing from either Winterfell or Riverrun? Then Ned's travels from the Eyrie to White Harbor or wherever he was to call his banners, then go to Riverrun to marry Catelyn and impregnate her with Robb. All these things happened between Brandon's last night with Lady Dustin and Robb's conception.
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Post by min on Nov 23, 2016 18:44:55 GMT
Course the other things that appeals to me is that Ramsey Snow is Brandon's son by Lady Dustin. I think it's pretty well established that Ramsay looks very much like Roose, though...are you suggesting that Roose and Barbrey had a thing? I would find Barbrey + Brandon = Jon (taken later by Ned) more plausible, if the age thing wasn't an issue. In my calculations, Brandon took his final trip to KL sometime in late Q1 282, so if he had 'relations' with Barbrey sometime right before that, then yes, Lord Ryswell could have arranged a quickie shotgun marriage to Lord Dustin right after Brandon died and Ned was forced to marry Catelyn. If Barbrey was carrying Brandon's baby, it would have been born sometime early 283. However, GRRM has confirmed that Brandon left behind no sons; there's also no mention in the text of Barbrey having a child at all, even one that might have been passed off as Lord Dustin's. Not to say it couldn't have happened and that she could have birthed in secret having made an arrangement beforehand with Ned to take the child, but there are no hints to it (that I have found - if anyone has some, please post). Finally, by the time Cat and Robb got to Winterfell, Jon was already there, still with his wetnurse - if this was after the war's end in late 284, a child born in early 283 would be almost 2yo and probably not still nursing, much less "of an age" with infant Robb. So, while it's possible, I don't see either scenario as likely. I wondered if Barbrey had a son by Brandon since he was fostered there and they had an ongoing affair. Ramsey then being foisted off on her brother Roose before she was married to Dustin since she couldn't have Ned or Brandon. I realize that Ramsey has Roose's 'look' and that's why he took him. But this is also true of Jon having Ned's 'look'. Barbrey is Roose's sister same as Lyanna being Ned's. If she was refused by the Starks with a Stark baby in her belly; that would piss her off. Barbrey would need to send a bastard gotten out of wedlock away somewhere. Ramsey's birth is pegged at 282 or earlier. Brandon Died 282 and Ned married Catelyn shortly after that. Lord Dustin was at Catelyn's wedding to Ned and they left for the south after that; where Dustin died at the ToJ never seeing Barbrey again. Given the ages here which I should have checked beforehand; it's impossible for Jon to be Brandon's but I don't think it's impossible for Ramsey to be Brandon's. www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well? It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.
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Post by min on Nov 23, 2016 18:58:42 GMT
SomePig did an excellent timeline for you regarding this. Yes thank you, Some Pig. This is not in my wheelhouse either. I get completely baffled by this stuff. In fact, I've been confused about my own age for years.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 23, 2016 19:05:33 GMT
Lady Barbary Dustin nee Ryswell is not Roose Bolton's sister.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 23, 2016 19:11:16 GMT
Ned wants people to believe that Jon was conceived right after he married Catelyn. Added to that are the comments that bastards grow up faster than other children, so if Ned is trying to conceal his true age and make Jon younger than Robb, then surely this means he actually is older? BUT he also claims Wylla is Jon's mother, but where could Ned have met Wylla after his marriage? He rode from Riverrun to the Trident to join Robert...am I remembering this right?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 23, 2016 19:36:09 GMT
Lady Barbary Dustin nee Ryswell is not Roose Bolton's sister. Right - they were in-laws by marriage. Barbrey's sister was Roose's first wife and mother to Dominic, I believe. ETA: DOMERIC, not Dominic. geeeeeezzzz And Bethany Ryswell was his second wife.
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Post by Melifeather on Nov 23, 2016 20:02:36 GMT
Lady Barbary Dustin nee Ryswell is not Roose Bolton's sister. Right - they were in-laws by marriage. Barbrey's sister was Roose's first wife and mother to Dominic, I believe. I had forgotten that...
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 23, 2016 22:11:41 GMT
Ned wants people to believe that Jon was conceived right after he married Catelyn. Added to that are the comments that bastards grow up faster than other children, so if Ned is trying to conceal his true age and make Jon younger than Robb, then surely this means he actually is older? BUT he also claims Wylla is Jon's mother, but where could Ned have met Wylla after his marriage? He rode from Riverrun to the Trident to join Robert...am I remembering this right? Not sure if Ned claims Wylla is Jon's mother, other than to Robert. Actually, that seems more like an assumption of Robert's. Bro talk. If that were on the radar for other people, surely they would have thought it or mentioned it. I utterly agree that Jon is portrayed as younger than Robb but could be older. Bastards grow up faster, yes that's one quote. There is also another somewhere that Robb was a frail and small baby. Add those together and it reeks of trying to justify Robb being smaller and Jon being more advanced.... while the official story is Jon being younger and Robb being the elder, and official, heir. Cersei also has a crack at Ned about stealing a child from Ashara. And about his bastard's mother being Dornish. Yeah I need to dig up the quotes but... yeah.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 23, 2016 22:52:35 GMT
I utterly agree that Jon is portrayed as younger than Robb but could be older. Bastards grow up faster, yes that's one quote. There is also another somewhere that Robb was a frail and small baby. Add those together and it reeks of trying to justify Robb being smaller and Jon being more advanced.... while the official story is Jon being younger and Robb being the elder, and official, heir. 'Tis why I cling to my Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ like my guns and religion. If Ned's trip home to call his banners happened in late Q3-early Q4 282 like I suspect, a Fisherman's Daughter baby would make an appearance in Q2/Q3 283....earlier than Robb, but still within range to be passed off as younger. A couple months' difference could be fudged; a couple years, not so much.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Nov 23, 2016 23:01:54 GMT
I utterly agree that Jon is portrayed as younger than Robb but could be older. Bastards grow up faster, yes that's one quote. There is also another somewhere that Robb was a frail and small baby. Add those together and it reeks of trying to justify Robb being smaller and Jon being more advanced.... while the official story is Jon being younger and Robb being the elder, and official, heir. 'Tis why I cling to my Fisherman's Daughter Theory™ like my guns and religion. If Ned's trip home to call his banners happened in late Q3-early Q4 282 like I suspect, a Fisherman's Daughter baby would make an appearance in Q2/Q3 283....earlier than Robb, but still within range to be passed off as younger. A couple months' difference could be fudged; a couple years, not so much. We've got a pretty cool parallel with Aemon Steelsong and Monster too. Don't have it all handy, but the bottom line is that Sam, who has been around Monster since he was born, doesn't even notice when he was switched with Aemon S.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Nov 23, 2016 23:31:00 GMT
We've got a pretty cool parallel with Aemon Steelsong and Monster too. Don't have it all handy, but the bottom line is that Sam, who has been around Monster since he was born, doesn't even notice when he was switched with Aemon S. Exactly. And Monster is 2-3 months older than Aemon, but the weaker of the two. It's not as if all the men-in-charge were changing nappies or doing tummy time and would notice. Shoot, in those days kids probably weren't distinguishable to anyone besides their parents until they were around 10.
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