|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 28, 2016 23:30:19 GMT
Death pays for life so his first son by Elia died so the second could live. "There must be one more." Or perhaps that is backwards: only death can pay for life, so his second son has to die so the first can live. Makes me wonder.....if realAegon DID die at some point, was the intent to resurrect him? Ages ago on Heresy I suggested that Jon - whoever's kid he is - was meant to be either a sacrificial lamb or the antagonist to the PtwP [Aegon]. A hero can't be a hero without something to be heroic against, right? If you go for the sacrifice angle, that ties into the idea of blood magic at the TOJ.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 29, 2016 0:03:57 GMT
the antagonist to the PtwP [Aegon] Oh yeahh. Like! Because if Rhaegar knew a little something about prophecies and his son the hero, wouldn't he know about the anti-hero? Wouldn't he know that the prince that was promised... was promised to do something? That would probably involve an enemy?So if Lyanna were gestating the anti-hero who would be a danger to his hero baby, I could easily see him say to his KG "wait for it to be born, then kill it because it's a danger to my son, and I'm going to mess with prophecy even though I know I shouldn't." Which makes more sense than "wait for it to be born, then crown it king."
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 29, 2016 0:20:30 GMT
So if Lyanna were gestating the anti-hero who would be a danger to his hero baby, I could easily see him say to his KG "wait for it to be born, then kill it because it's a danger to my son, and I'm going to mess with prophecy even though I know I shouldn't." Which makes more sense than "wait for it to be born, then crown it king." You got it! Although I think there might be an element of specialness to the blood of the child that would preclude killing mom and baby straight away - like, he needed that magical goodness of untainted antichrist blood to work the spells and wake...whatever. Death isn't enough, it has to be a sacrifice.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 29, 2016 0:26:11 GMT
So if Lyanna were gestating the anti-hero who would be a danger to his hero baby, I could easily see him say to his KG "wait for it to be born, then kill it because it's a danger to my son, and I'm going to mess with prophecy even though I know I shouldn't." Which makes more sense than "wait for it to be born, then crown it king." You got it! Although I think there might be an element of specialness to the blood of the child that would preclude killing mom and baby straight away - like, he needed that magical goodness of untainted antichrist blood to work the spells and wake...whatever. Death isn't enough, it has to be a sacrifice. ah so there was an element missing that precluded it happening earlier. Someone's presence? A comet maybe? The right weapon?
|
|
|
Post by min on Jul 29, 2016 0:33:52 GMT
I don't know if I can answer your question specifically. I don't think the intent was to resurrect Rhaegar's first son by Elia. When Elia asks him if the baby has a song; he says he already has a song; the song of ice and fire. Rhaegar is wrong about the TPTWP prophecy. First he thinks it applies to him and later that it's not him; but his offspring. He thinks he needs one more son to cover the bases, one for ice and one for fire. But he's still wrong, unless Dany is his offspring.
The song of ice and fire belongs to Dany and Jon. They both have to fight the ancient enemy which has opened the war on two fronts; one of the fire side, with Euron and Dany and on the ice wide, sith Jon at the Wall and whatever is showing up at the Wall. I suspect that the ice version of Euron will be Ramsey Snow with his evil name and taste for the "wild hunt" and all things Night King.
I think you can consider Bran a wild card, playing on both Dany and Jon's teams. In the end, the Great Other itself has to be defeated.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Jul 29, 2016 2:58:24 GMT
I don't know if I can answer your question specifically. I don't think the intent was to resurrect Rhaegar's first son by Elia. When Elia asks him if the baby has a song; he says he already has a song; the song of ice and fire. Rhaegar is wrong about the TPTWP prophecy. First he thinks it applies to him and later that it's not him; but his offspring. He thinks he needs one more son to cover the bases, one for ice and one for fire. But he's still wrong, unless Dany is his offspring. The song of ice and fire belongs to Dany and Jon. They both have to fight the ancient enemy which has opened the war on two fronts; one of the fire side, with Euron and Dany and on the ice wide, sith Jon at the Wall and whatever is showing up at the Wall. I suspect that the ice version of Euron will be Ramsey Snow with his evil name and taste for the "wild hunt" and all things Night King. I think you can consider Bran a wild card, playing on both Dany and Jon's teams. In the end, the Great Other itself has to be defeated. IMO Jon Snow is replaying the role of the Lord Commander/Night's King, and Ramsay Snow is reprising the legitimized Lord of Winterfell. Old Nan said the LC Night's King and the Lord of Winterfell were brothers. Jon and Ramsay aren't blood brothers, but they are bastard brothers sharing the same last name, "Snow". In the original tale the Lord of Winterfell joined up with Joramun the King Beyond the Wall to take down the Night's King. This time the LC Night's King will take down the Lord of Winterfell who has captured the King Beyond the Wall. The swirling away of the Wall is due to happen after Ramsay's defeat. We may be able to work out what happens to Jon by reversing the story of the Night's King. The Night's King saw a beautiful Other, took her to wife, and gave her his seed. Jon has to reject the beautiful Other and protect the Wall from the coming invasion. Bran, on the other hand, has to reprise Brandon the Builder's story, but he's overseeing the "unbuilding" of the Wall....but I digress...we have to have a Last Hero also. I think Bran the Unbuilder is also the Last Hero, but instead of the Children helping the LH, the LH helps the Children.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 29, 2016 14:36:15 GMT
I'm wondering something, is the scene where Ned suggests Cersei run away across the narrow sea with her kids the same scene where she tries to seduce him, then accuses him of stealing a child from Ashara? Yes. She puts her hand on his thigh and tries to get him to oust Robert and take the throne himself. When Ned rejects the ploy she turns nasty on him and accuses him of causing Ashara's suicide by stealing Jon away.
|
|
|
Post by min on Jul 30, 2016 22:38:07 GMT
Posted at Westeros (keeping my notes in one place)
We have a semi-confirmation, I suppose, that Bran can warg Hodor in the past, although it damages his mind. Specifically he can't speak and seems a little slow. But he can comprehend. The 3EC can enter minds under a set of conditions: during grave illness as in Jojen's fever experience; or during a dream state or coma like Bran; or like Theon at Ramsey's wedding who hears his name whispered. They are all altered states of consciousness. Theon's state of mind having been altered by the sustained torture mental and physical pain by Ramsey. The Stark wolf blood makes a difference as well. The direwolf kids can easily connect with each other in their wolf dreams and some have more of the wolf in their blood than others (i.e. Sansa may have less). Which is why Ned almost hears Bran, but not quite. Bloodraven insists that it's not possible when Bran persists that Ned could hear him. But then again BR doesn't have the wolf blood and Melisandre seems to contradict that possibility when she tells Jon that she has talked to long dead kings.
There is a connection between not being able to speak and the power of the word (or giving one's word).
Melisandre - aDwD:
My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent and she could do things she had never done before.
And at the end of the chapter when she removes Mance's glamor:
Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.
The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips.
Hodor's inability to speak and the power of the word calls to mind Samwell Tarley's strange condition after he gives his word to Coldhands not to speak of Bran. Coldhands is so adamant about it that he makes Sam promise three times; once to Jojen, Bran and Coldhands. Sam later ponders the strength of that word bond over his mind and that no matter how badly he wants to tell Jon that Bran is alive; he is not able to do so. Who Sam makes the oath to seems important as Jojen is a Green Dreamer, Bran the next 3EC and Coldhands, well who knows. But suffice it to say; they are all intermediaries of the old gods.
The world believes the boy is dead ... Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me . - A SoS Sam Chapter 75
The life Sam owes Coldhands are Gilly, her baby and Samwell himself; and so he makes three promises.
There is another who has had his lips sealed in a manner similar to Sam and that's Ned Stark. He has never talked about Ashara Dayne or any event connected to her including the Tourney of Harrenahall. Even Meera and Jojen find that strange. The only time she is mentioned is when Catelyn brings it up and Ned flies into a rage forcing her to take and oath of obedience and that's the end of it. Not even when Cersei baits Ned with Ashara does he speak of it.
How did Ned's lips become sealed so tightly? I suspect a time intrusion at the Tower of Joy. Ned makes three promises to Lyanna:
Promise me Ned, promise me, promise me ....
But who is it that bind Ned to silence if it isn't Bran the future 3EC. Who can enter if the wolf blood is strong (Lyanna who has more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings), dying of a fever (an altered state of mind) and can only speak in a whisper. Who wants to talk to Ned so badly that he would defy his mentors warning?
This is Bran from the future exacting promises to protect three lives and sealing Ned's lips. Bran is the Prince (of Winterfell) who is promised (by Ned). Even Leaf says that Bran's coming was promised to the CotF for 200 years.
And who is the boy the world must believe is dead so that nobody comes searching? That must be Aegon who dies his hair blue to honor his mother and Septa Lemore who says that Aegon isn't the only one who has to disguise himself.
What is also interesting about Bran's recollection is that he says he touched Ghost and talked to Jon but then wonders if he dreamed Jon. Bloodraven also talks about the dreamers calling to him. So I suspect in future books any dreams that Bran has of talking to (dead) people or witnessing events might indicate a time incursion on his part.
Likewise, things that we come across that seem out of place. For example the trees with carved faces that Jon sees when he goes to Molestown. Up until now, only wierwoods have carved faces. The drunken aspen with a likeness of Tyrion, the old chestnut with mormont's raven perched on a branch, Bloodraven and the large Oak Tree with the angry face - Bran. There is a corresponding likeness in the towers at Moat Cailin: the drunken tower, the children's tower and the Night Fort's Tower with it ghost moss hanging on the limb of a tree (Black Gate) and it's broken crown of stones.
Ned dreams that Lyanna calls out to him: Lord Eddard!
Bran can't call him Father. Ned doesn't know he's talking to future Bran. He hasn't been born yet. Ned thinks he's talking to Lyanna. Calling him Lord Eddard would be out of character for Lyanna; but not necessarily for Bran who he sometimes thinks of as Lord Stark when he puts on his Lordly face.
But I don't know what this means.
|
|
|
Post by min on Jul 31, 2016 23:24:38 GMT
I need backup over on the current Heresy thread. People don't believe that it's book canon that Bran is unbound by time. I might not be explaining it very well.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 0:07:03 GMT
I need backup over on the current Heresy thread. People don't believe that it's book canon that Bran is unbound by time. I might not be explaining it very well. I thought I did back you up? I'll go see....
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 0:51:33 GMT
Yes! Thank you. I boiled it down to two quotes from the book just posted now. Start at the beginning and walk through. Let's see if there is understanding at this point.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 1, 2016 20:44:02 GMT
I've tried to lend you a hand there min, but I'm quite sure my remarks will be ignored. No one talks to Yield anymore.
|
|
|
Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 16:34:20 GMT
I need backup over on the current Heresy thread. People don't believe that it's book canon that Bran is unbound by time. I might not be explaining it very well. Thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole guys . And I haven't even made it to the part you are talking about yet!
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 4, 2016 16:37:44 GMT
I need backup over on the current Heresy thread. People don't believe that it's book canon that Bran is unbound by time. I might not be explaining it very well. Thanks for sending me down this rabbit hole guys . And I haven't even made it to the part you are talking about yet! LOL! I spend a lot of time down rabbit holes.
|
|
|
Post by ac on Aug 4, 2016 17:02:27 GMT
What are you called there min?
|
|