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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 28, 2016 16:38:21 GMT
I'm thinking it's possible to call back the dead, otherwise Leaf and Bloodraven wouldn't have counselled Bran against calling back his father, so I don't believe Coldhands, Beric, and Lady Stoneheart are being warged/skinchanged. I think they were dead once and called back, and like you say, not all there...merely a shadow of their former selves. That being said, they may not be "alone" in their bodies. Whatever form of magic that was used may have included a bit of "evil spirit", like the voice that spoke/answered back to the man that took Varys's "parts". Beric does say that each time Thoros brings him back there is less of himself. So it seems it's harder and harder to remain whole either the more times one is reanimated or the amount of time that's pasted since death occurred. I say we should look to the skinchangers that are living their second lives in their animals. Hagon tells Varamyr that as time passes, there is less of the man and more of the animal. Orell was still in his eagle, but not all of him remained there. The strongest emotion Varamyr got from Orell was his anger and his hate, little else of normal human consciousness and that was in the space of what? half a year? Orell had recently died when Varamyr took over the bird. The other half of this is the belief in where people go when they die. In Westeros they believe the spirit inhabits all of nature, so it becomes one with the land. But in Essos, the Dothraki believe they ride the heavens, so the spirit goes up to the sky, not locked with the land itself. Of course, each religion will also have its beliefs, but what if we took a leaf out of Terry Pratchett's books, and say the spirit does whatever the person believes it should do. In other words, if you believe you're going to an ice cold hell, that's where you go. In this way, the beliefs of the longest inhabitants of Westeros, the Singers and FM, will become the dominant afterlife, making the land itself full of spirits of the departed. This could explain why there are resurrections in Westeros and not in other places.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 28, 2016 16:48:33 GMT
I'm thinking it's possible to call back the dead, otherwise Leaf and Bloodraven wouldn't have counselled Bran against calling back his father, so I don't believe Coldhands, Beric, and Lady Stoneheart are being warged/skinchanged. I think they were dead once and called back, and like you say, not all there...merely a shadow of their former selves. That being said, they may not be "alone" in their bodies. Whatever form of magic that was used may have included a bit of "evil spirit", like the voice that spoke/answered back to the man that took Varys's "parts". Beric does say that each time Thoros brings him back there is less of himself. So it seems it's harder and harder to remain whole either the more times one is reanimated or the amount of time that's pasted since death occurred. I say we should look to the skinchangers that are living their second lives in their animals. Hagon tells Varamyr that as time passes, there is less of the man and more of the animal. Orell was still in his eagle, but not all of him remained there. The strongest emotion Varamyr got from Orell was his anger and his hate, little else of normal human consciousness and that was in the space of what? half a year? Orell had recently died when Varamyr took over the bird. The other half of this is the belief in where people go when they die. In Westeros they believe the spirit inhabits all of nature, so it becomes one with the land. But in Essos, the Dothraki believe they ride the heavens, so the spirit goes up to the sky, not locked with the land itself. Of course, each religion will also have its beliefs, but what if we took a leaf out of Terry Pratchett's books, and say the spirit does whatever the person believes it should do. In other words, if you believe you're going to an ice cold hell, that's where you go. In this way, the beliefs of the longest inhabitants of Westeros, the Singers and FM, will become the dominant afterlife, making the land itself full of spirits of the departed. This could explain why there are resurrections in Westeros and not in other places. Both places, Westeros and Essos, say that the bones remember, and I'm thinking the Dothraki's tradition of burning the dead is in order to release the spirit from the bones, and since they're not known to be skinchangers their spirits are released...they believe up into the sky with the rising smoke. Part of what Beric describes could be attributed to "spirit loss" if he is injured in such a way as to open a bone. The spirit in that section of bone would be released and he would lose the use of that section or limb. And each death would result in more loss of brain tissue with no way to revive those areas.
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Post by Direwolf Blitzer on May 23, 2016 3:48:06 GMT
Bravo, sir. Bravo! Now to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, and just how much time-lording he's done. And also to ignore all the cliched time travel paradoxes, because they're coming, sure as Winter.
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 4:30:40 GMT
Bran the Timelord!
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Post by alienarea on May 23, 2016 5:59:28 GMT
Not saying it's bad, but I don't like. Guess it goes back to F. Scott Fitzgerald: "You can't repeat the past." "You can't repeat the past? Why of course you can."
We know how that ended, don't we?
The plot is weak.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 12:05:45 GMT
Well this is pretty cool. Certainly opens up plenty of possibilities. And Bran seems to be learning his warging powers are what can change the past. Hrm.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 23, 2016 13:26:28 GMT
If it's just Bran and Meera - will Bran attempt to skinchange Meera? Meera may still be the pregnant woman emerging from Winterfell pool per my OP. If Bran has no one to teach him or reign him in, I guess that task is up to Meera, or Bran goes rogue. He can visit any point in history that he wants to visit. He'll go up and see what's in the tower.
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 17:33:24 GMT
I would say since Bran saw what he did to Hodor, that he would tread more carefully
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 18:25:10 GMT
If Bran has no one to teach him or reign him in, I guess that task is up to Meera, or Bran goes rogue. He can visit any point in history that he wants to visit. He'll go up and see what's in the tower. I definitely think he'll go back there. He was stopped by BR and told it was enough for one day, but that they'd return another time. So, I'm thinking either he'll go back on his own or it's part of the information dump BR gave him as they were escaping the cave. Oh yeah and as I wrote that, I just had another thought... what if while fleeing, they get help from a returning Benjen? And this is what prompts Bran to go back to the ToJ? Benjen would probably know all about Jon, so let's say Bran says 'We have to get to Jon and warn the NW' and Benjen answers something cryptic about what they really need is a dragon/true Stark/flame thrower, so Bran goes back and makes sure that Jon is what he actually needs to be in order to fight the Others?
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Post by Melifeather on May 23, 2016 18:33:02 GMT
I'm thinking there is something to do with Ned's leaving and his hug with Benjen, and Rickard tells him if he has any trouble to fight, or something along those lines.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 23, 2016 18:58:49 GMT
I'm thinking there is something to do with Ned's leaving and his hug with Benjen, and Rickard tells him if he has any trouble to fight, or something along those lines. That's were the idea of Benjen finding Meera and Bran came from, for me. What Rickard says to Ned is 'don't fight' but if he had to fight to make sure he won.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 12:24:08 GMT
Bran the Timelord: If Bran learns to time travel, affect/change the past, or even participate in it through skinchanging other characters, we could well end up with Bran as KotLT, Bran as Jon's Father, Bran as every other Bran who lived, etc. Big stuff. yup, quoting myself. Bran as "TGO" eventually ensconced in the roots of the heart tree deep in the Winterfell Crypts. That would freak Jon out plenty. As for the mechanisms of fathering Jon, I think Ghost is the key because I've always believed that BR "mated wolf with wolf" to create Ghost. We know wargs can mate while in other forms via Varamyr. All Bran needs is a vessel to inhabit, if not Hodor, someone else. But And Hodor is still alive in the past. He and Lyanna had a moment in the show too. The other possibility of course is that Bran and Meera are Jon's parents.
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 16:55:44 GMT
I was wondering if Bran got to the crypts, would he remove all the swords and warding on the dead Lords? Because wouldn't that fulfill Jon's vision of the crypts opening? He could use the dead Starks to defeat the Others.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 17:47:11 GMT
Because wouldn't that fulfill Jon's vision of the crypts opening? It was a dream, not a vision. But regardless, why would more dead guys be a good thing? They're the enemy's weapon, Stark or not.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 18:15:55 GMT
Because wouldn't that fulfill Jon's vision of the crypts opening? If the NK touching Bran broke the ward on the cave, maybe it broke the other wards too.
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