|
Post by Maester Flagons on Mar 5, 2016 0:14:48 GMT
In relation to this theory has anyone noticed in the novels if Sansa and Rickon are affected by Ghost's call? Obviously there isn't much to go on for Rickon but for Sansa could this be connected to her becoming more of a Stark in her mind. Such as that castle building chapter of hers in ASOS? Good question. Lady has been sacrificed by the time of Ghost's call, so I dont know how much it would or could affect her. Rickon, I'm not sure about. Sounds like a chapter reread.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 5, 2016 0:16:48 GMT
Would Sansa have heard the horn-howl with Lady dead? I'm thinking her third eye is blind....heh.
|
|
|
Post by snowfyre on Mar 5, 2016 0:18:36 GMT
In relation to this theory has anyone noticed in the novels if Sansa and Rickon are affected by Ghost's call? Obviously there isn't much to go on for Rickon but for Sansa could this be connected to her becoming more of a Stark in her mind. Such as that castle building chapter of hers in ASOS? Good questions! I've looked around a bit, and didn't see anything for those two. Rickon was with Bran, and doesn't get his own POV, so not much info there. I might have to look back at Sansa's chapters again, but her storyline is right in the middle of the attack on King's Landing. Lots of distraction, there. Meanwhile, Robb is off-stage - but we can guess he was "busy" at the Crag. And he later reports his disillusionment with his wolf self, resulting from the news that Bran and Rickon were dead. No word of remarkable howling a from afar. There is another character I wonder about, though - and it'll come as a surprise. I wonder about Theon Greyjoy. Read the beginning of Chapter 56... just 3 chapters after Jon's dream... and note the howling in his dreams, and the cold "dream forest" he visits as he sleeps in his bed, "Prince of Winterfell." Curious.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 4:09:07 GMT
In relation to this theory has anyone noticed in the novels if Sansa and Rickon are affected by Ghost's call? Obviously there isn't much to go on for Rickon but for Sansa could this be connected to her becoming more of a Stark in her mind. Such as that castle building chapter of hers in ASOS? Good questions! I've looked around a bit, and didn't see anything for those two. Rickon was with Bran, and doesn't get his own POV, so not much info there. I might have to look back at Sansa's chapters again, but her storyline is right in the middle of the attack on King's Landing. Lots of distraction, there. Meanwhile, Robb is off-stage - but we can guess he was "busy" at the Crag. And he later reports his disillusionment with his wolf self, resulting from the news that Bran and Rickon were dead. No word of remarkable howling a from afar. There is another character I wonder about, though - and it'll come as a surprise. I wonder about Theon Greyjoy. Read the beginning of Chapter 56... just 3 chapters after Jon's dream... and note the howling in his dreams, and the cold "dream forest" he visits as he sleeps in his bed, "Prince of Winterfell." Curious. I will have to check it out. Theon Greyjoy the secret Stark
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2016 2:47:03 GMT
There is another character I wonder about, though - and it'll come as a surprise. I wonder about Theon Greyjoy. Read the beginning of Chapter 56... just 3 chapters after Jon's dream... and note the howling in his dreams, and the cold "dream forest" he visits as he sleeps in his bed, "Prince of Winterfell." I have often wondered if the old gods/Cotf/spririts torment him while he is in Winterfell. Do you think Theon is a warg? Or do you think someone is communicating with him?
|
|
|
Post by Maester Flagons on Mar 8, 2016 1:05:37 GMT
This may seem a rather simple explanation to this question, but I've always rather thought that Ghost was dreaming too. Now hear me out here, because at first it doesn't seem to be the case, but it might be. The group stop at the top of the pass and decide to wait until the sun shifts enough for them to be in shadow before they start an exposed descent. Jon thinks he'd really like a chance to walk in the sunshine, so that he can warm himself, but thinks being a live would be preferable. When Jon wakes suddenly from this dream, and they set off again, the sun is nearly setting, so it seems some time has passed. It is not as instantaneous as Jon drifting off and immediately having this dream. If Ghost, who was already nervous at being in the pass, as evidenced by his repeated turning to look behind them, and since he'd just eaten some salt beef with Jon, it could stand to reason that he'd pick a less exposed place to sleep. When they find Ghost again, he's hidden between boulders, and the sun has dipped behind the mountain line, so Ghost can't be far down the road if night has not fallen yet. It's the eagle perched on some rocks further off that cause the group to stop and that's when Jon finds Ghost. The whole thing suggests that Ghost didn't travel far from where he was attacked. I think both Ghost and Jon were dreaming and at the moment that Bran reaches down and touches Ghost, Ghost startles awake and is exposed. That's when the eagle finds him. It also explains why there is a forest, when there should be none and why it disappears. It also explains why Ghost is in a snow drift when there is no snow either. The previous terrain and the terrain in which Ghost is found is not covered in snow. The ground is described as so stony, there's hardly grass. But there are drifts of snow, and where better to hide a white wolf then in a patch of snow? We see later on that the connection between wolves is stronger than we thought, since Ghost knows what each of his remaining siblings is doing in the Dance chapter. Who can say if the wolves don't reach out to one another in their dreams? If say, Ghost was dreaming of forests, he could've been visiting with Nymeria, and it would explain the forest. Or he could've been with Grey Wind too, but I don't remember were they were at the time, and chances are the Rob was not in a forest at the time or resting during the day. If both Ghost and Nymeria were sleeping though, there is a good chance that both of them could be reaching through to their human partners too, just like the children do. Hmmmm. If what you say is correct, and Jon joined Ghost's dream, then it seems very possible that Ghost was not actually physically viewing the valley where Mance's host was gathered. In fact this scene is viewed immediately after the Bran tree reaches down to Ghost to open (Jon's? Ghost's) third eye. So I wonder if Bran didn't open Jon's "third eye" but perhaps opened Ghost's? And perhaps Ghost was viewing the Valley through other means? After rereading Bran in ACOK, I think there could he something there. Bran thanks to himself, "If I were truly a direwolf, I would understand the song, he thought wistfully. In his wolf dreams, he could race up the sides of mountains, jagged icy mountains taller than any tower, and stand at the summit beneath the full moon with all the world below him, the way it used to be." This thought is before Bran and Jon's meeting in the mountains. It's not the deep woods, it's on the frozen heights. A time past and yet to come.
|
|
|
Post by Maester Flagons on Mar 8, 2016 1:54:41 GMT
And to pull myself back on topic, it seems this song of the direwolves; the connection between man and wolf within the dreaming and the conscious is some ancient 'magic.' A song that can reach the waking and the sleeping giants?
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 8, 2016 18:02:01 GMT
Hmmmm. If what you say is correct, and Jon joined Ghost's dream, then it seems very possible that Ghost was not actually physically viewing the valley where Mance's host was gathered. In fact this scene is viewed immediately after the Bran tree reaches down to Ghost to open (Jon's? Ghost's) third eye. So I wonder if Bran didn't open Jon's "third eye" but perhaps opened Ghost's? And perhaps Ghost was viewing the Valley through other means? After rereading Bran in ACOK, I think there could he something there. Bran thanks to himself, "If I were truly a direwolf, I would understand the song, he thought wistfully. In his wolf dreams, he could race up the sides of mountains, jagged icy mountains taller than any tower, and stand at the summit beneath the full moon with all the world below him, the way it used to be." This thought is before Bran and Jon's meeting in the mountains. It's not the deep woods, it's on the frozen heights. A time past and yet to come. Hmm, this lends more credence to Ghost being the one that reaches out and yerns for connections with his fellow pack mates. If Bran is dreaming of 'jagged icy mountains taller than any tower' before that dream with the weirwood, to me at least it seems that Bran is somehow seeing what Ghost sees. Either through his union with Summer, and therefore connected to Ghost through him, or Ghost directly reaches out to him as a warg. My suspicion is the later. And to bring this back to the topic at hand, it's also interesting that the scene Bran sees is one of Winter, not the surrounding grounds of Winterfell, where his direwolf is, but a cold, inhospitable, winter place. So the Horn of Winter could be that opening of Bran, and later Ghost's and possibly Jon's third eye to see what winter really is; or could be in future.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 8, 2016 18:11:25 GMT
Would Sansa have heard the horn-howl with Lady dead? I'm thinking her third eye is blind....heh. It's quite interesting about Sansa because the chapters go like this:- Jon 51 Sansa 52 Jon 53 Jon 53 is the Skirling Pass dream. But, Sansa 52 is when Sansa 'becomes a woman'. She has that horrible dream and wakes up to her first 'flowering'. What's interesting about though is that she is full of fear and in her next chapter, 57, she is still full of fear. Not once is Lady, or any kind of wolf, mention in either chapter. The only canine to be involved in her story, at this point, is the Hound. However, she's still brave enough to meet with Dontos and she stands up to the Hound, who taunts her about 'the little bird wanting to fly' off the top of one of the tower of the Red Keep. So subtext wise, there are a lot of little links to Sansa being a wolf, and a true Stark. ETA I meant to add, that even though we don't get any indication that the call reached her to open her third eye, another kind of change occurs with her at the same time that Bran, Ghost, Jon and Arya all change too.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Mar 8, 2016 18:14:02 GMT
If there's one thing that has become very apparent to me over the last week or so deciphering the POV chapters used in the Inversion thread is that GRRM's symbolism is multi-layered. It will apply equally well to more than one thing.
I personally don't believe the animals themselves are intelligent enough to do the type of critical thinking some are attributing to them. They're just animals! Gifts from the old gods, but still vessels for the Stark wargs to utilize.
IMO Jon was reaching out and Bran answered. The howl was Jon telepathically calling, and it's likely the reason GRRM chose to make Ghost a silent wolf, so that we would understand that this type of communication is happening in their minds. They "met" in their shared consciousness/minds.
|
|
|
Post by snowfyre on Mar 8, 2016 18:17:09 GMT
Glad Maester Flagons brought this one up... this is one of the other "wolf dream" descriptions that I find intriguingly out-of-synch with what we've come to recognize as warging. This description appears in Bran's first POV chapter in Clash - well before he learns to voluntarily open his third eye. And at the time he recalls these particular dreams, Summer has been locked up in the Winterfell godswood - so "racing up the sides of mountains" appears distinctly out of place. Frankly, even before Summer and Shaggy were confined to the godswood, it seems to me we've been given little reason to believe the direwolves ever ranged so far away from the younger Stark boys that they'd find themselves physically "racing up the sides of... jagged icy mountains." So this particular sentence catches my eye, and raises questions. I tend to think the mountains in Bran's dreams must be similar to the forest in Jon's dreams.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 0:45:27 GMT
Would Sansa have heard the horn-howl with Lady dead? I'm thinking her third eye is blind....heh. It's quite interesting about Sansa because the chapters go like this:- Jon 51 Sansa 52 Jon 53 Jon 53 is the Skirling Pass dream. But, Sansa 52 is when Sansa 'becomes a woman'. She has that horrible dream and wakes up to her first 'flowering'. What's interesting about though is that she is full of fear and in her next chapter, 57, she is still full of fear. Not once is Lady, or any kind of wolf, mention in either chapter. The only canine to be involved in her story, at this point, is the Hound. However, she's still brave enough to meet with Dontos and she stands up to the Hound, who taunts her about 'the little bird wanting to fly' off the top of one of the tower of the Red Keep. So subtext wise, there are a lot of little links to Sansa being a wolf, and a true Stark. ETA I meant to add, that even though we don't get any indication that the call reached her to open her third eye, another kind of change occurs with her at the same time that Bran, Ghost, Jon and Arya all change too. I was thinking something similiar to this in the last few days! You articulated it much better than I would have though!
|
|
|
Post by snowfyre on Mar 9, 2016 22:45:29 GMT
Snowfyre: Uh, WUT? You said you're... what, Jon Snow?
JON: "What do you mean, wut? I said I'm his man."
Snowfyre: Yeah, I know I know. But, I mean... whose man, are you exactly?
JON: "His, you doofus. The Lord Commander's. I'm Jeor's man."
Snowfyre: (Hee-hee.) There it is. Say it again!
JON: "What? Jeor's man?"
Snowfyre: (Lol. That's so cool...) So, you might say you're a "Jeor man?" Hey, can you say that five times fast?
JON: (rolls eyes) "Old gods, this is getting ridiculous. I'm outta here..."
|
|
|
Post by snowfyre on Mar 9, 2016 22:51:42 GMT
(I still have a Part IV to this theory, folks... I promise I'll get to it!)
|
|
|
Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 11, 2016 17:29:05 GMT
|
|