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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 7, 2016 3:52:22 GMT
(Note: this first part about the Black Armor is a repost that some of you have seen before, but the second part is new.) PART 1. THE ARMORSo, one of the cool things that’s come out of this trip through the Marvel wormhole is the realization that, in addition to all the, *ahem*, striking similarities in written/divulged plot, there are some things that bubble to the surface that have me going “Will he? Hmm..I wonder. Is he…?” with regard to GRRM's future unwritten/undisclosed plot. I see certain shared elements between ASOIAF and Marvel, but the difference is that this element is/becomes a big deal in the Marvel world but isn’t so much in the ASOIAF world….or at least not yet. The following is a great example. I stumbled upon this while plugging through some Origin Arc-anery and thought, “Well, shit. I see the series counterpart; is this particular Marvel arc predictive of something to come that we’ve all ignored?” Note: Although this is related to the incomplete/unpublished Origin Arc and Modern Arc , it’s only peripherally so – so thankfully you won’t really need to understand the background of those two arcs in order to digest this one. Also, about the characters – as noted in all threads thus far, we don’t always have a 1:1 correlation between book and comic players. Dr. Strange can be associated with both Bran and Jon, for example. The converse is also true, and that’s really apparent when we get into the Modern Arc and all the really well-known characters – somebody like Jaime might actually display traits/storylines of a couple of Marvel guys. So, when you read below, you’ll probably figure out what the associations are, but keep in mind these not be the ONLY associations…more will come later. OK, so I want to talk about armor. Specifically, Rhaegar Targaryen’s trademark black armor with the rubies and ultra-recognizable dragon helm. As we know, this is the armor he wore when he won the Tourney at Harrenhal, and is the armor he would die in at the Trident. Much has been speculated about Rhaegar and each of these events – was it really him wearing the armor? Was he glamored? Did he really die at the Trident? How was he cremated “as is custom for fallen Targaryens” if he died in the Riverlands, on enemy territory, after losing to the rebels? Fishy, George, fishy. And… WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DAMN ARMOR? (Burning question for no one but me, really.) Supposedly the rubies went into the Trident... but where’s the rest of the suit? There is still some Targaryen armor lining some hall in the Red Keep, but no mention of whether Rhaegar’s very specific (and very caved-in) plate is among the rows. That being said, this is a Marvel thread, so let’s talk about: THE DESTROYER.Debuting in the Silver Age of Comic Books, the Destroyer is featured in over four decades of Marvel continuity. It’s not a person - it is a suit of Asgardian armor, animated by magic, which first appears in Journey into Mystery #118 (Jul. 1965) and was created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. A Class 100+ weapon, the enchanted armor created by Odin/Zeus/Brahma ( aka "The Skyfathers"; don't overlook the significance of the trinity here) that contains portions of the gods’ energies was intended to be the force capable of doing battle with the Celestials in the upcoming Fourth Host (visit by Celestials to Earth, to judge the quality of humankind). *Side note: the armor was to be supplemented by the Odinsword, Odin’s magical weapon that goes by the name of/is foretold to bring about Ragnarok. The gods created the armor after the Third Host, during which a contingent of all major gods “challenged the Celestials' right to interfere in Earth's affairs. The outcome of that encounter was that all of the major races of gods swore to forego their active involvement in the destiny of mankind.” (Note again the magic number 3 here – a third appearance by some wacky deity-beings (whom I will cover very thoroughly in Origin Arc; they will not be detailed right now) from eons ago that will come again to test the fate of man for a final time.)Destroyer is made of an unknown metal superior to adamantium (think Wolverine's claws) and even Uru, the magical metal of Asgard. (Sidebar: Fun description of Uru, the magical metal that is used for many famous weapons the Marvelverse, in particular Thor’s hammer Mjolnir, Odin’s spear Gungnir, and Captain Amercia’s reconstructed shield:Uru is non-sparking and is a highly immalleable metal, often requiring extreme methods to forge it (for example, the heart of a star, or an enchanted forge). Albeit very difficult to forge, weapons and items built in Uru, especially the enchanted ones, are resilient to most forms of damage. With a natural affinity to magic, Uru is not only easy to enchant, but also absorbs magic like a sponge, redirecting it and enhancing the natural attributes of his wielder. The symbiotic relationship between Uru and its wielder works both ways: a mystical user, such as Thor, can lend to the Uru in his weapon his own strength, in the process making the metal stronger and more resilient. Sound like another metal we know? )
Without going into a bunch of complex comic plot, let’s suffice it to say that over the years, the Destroyer armor was subject to various attempts at possession/manipulation by Loki (Asgardian trickster god, for those living under a rock) to use against his half-brother Thor. Loki would find the armor and con someone into imbuing it with their soul or whatever, and then try to set the Destroyer loose on Thor. In a couple of instances Thor himself transferred his consciousness into the Destroyer in order to wrench it away from its host or do battle with it in some weird way, I can’t really follow the exact intent and mechanism of it. Takeaway here is that the armor is magic, is associated with a magical race of people, and is used primarily in an ongoing grudge match between two sworn rivals.
First Really Interesting Thing here is the list of powers associated with The Destroyer. I think you’ll see where I’m going with this.
“The Destroyer armor possesses numerous superhuman capabilities but only if the armor is inhabited by the spirit of a sentient being. While some of the powers might vary, depending upon the spirit inhabiting the armor, they are primarily the same for any.”
- Superhuman Strength: vast immeasurable power of unknown limit.
- Superhuman Durability: invulnerable to most all forms of physical damage (except that inflicted by more powerful cosmic entities) such as bullets, pressure, falls, temperature, and (my favorite) “tremendously powerful impact forces.”
- Superhuman Speed
- Superhuman Stamina: it is not subject to physical fatigue.
- Superhuman Agility and Reflexes: Natural agility, balance, and bodily coordination are enhanced to levels that are far beyond natural physical limits; the armor's reflexes are similarly heightened and are far superior to those possessed by the finest human athlete.
So, I imagine that if someone were wearing this special armor in, say, a tournament, it’s not a big stretch to imagine that “no lance could touch him.”
Also, the armor is also capable of manipulating the molecular structure of most materials and matter itself for a variety of purposes, including transmutation – probably a useful skill when you have a giant pointed stick or a warhammer coming toward you.
Now, despite this armor being a juggernaut of battle and destruction, it has downsides – namely that the base kill-kill-kill personality of the armor can eventually take over the mind of the host if they wear it too long. “After a time, it becomes nearly impossible for an inhabiting spirit to maintain control over the armor while attempting to use it for non-violent purposes in non-combat situations. In time, the armor itself will dominate the inhabiting life force. “
In other words, you can warg the armor, but there are consequences for staying. Unless you are a being of serious magical mojo, and probably an Asgardian, because guys like Odin, Thor, and Loki are the only ones who can control the damn thing.
"The Destroyer is not a suit of armor that can be physically worn or disassembled. A life force must be projected into the armor in order to animate it which leaves the possessor’s body in a catatonic state. The Destroyer is linked to the body of the individual inside which is why the person does not die due to lack of life force, but if the person’s essence is put back inside its body by a powerful spell directed at the person, the Destroyer will become inanimate once again. By the same token, if the person’s body is killed, the life force will leave the Destroyer and revert it back to its lifeless state. Normally, a person has to be close to the Destroyer and a willing participant to have their life essence transferred into it, but a person’s essence can also be transferred if that person is not mentally guarded for such a transfer. Odin or Loki, however, can make the transferals over great distances due to their proficiency with magic."
The second Really Interesting Thing is what happens to the suit when it’s not being warged by someone trying to destroy Thor: it gets hidden. Usually by Odin, who doesn’t want it falling into the wrong hands.
Odin squirrels it away in the underground Temple of Darkness for a time, until Loki finds it and animates it the first time. After it is recovered it goes back into the Temple, which Odin then collapses, seemingly burying the Destroyer in the rubble. Wash, rinse, repeat in another encounter – this time Loki gets his trickster hands on it and uses it in another plot with some other folks.** He is foiled in the end and Odin takes the armor into custody again.
**This plot covers Thor Vol 1 145-153, and has some majorly, majorly pertinent elements in it – I will get to this momentarily in Part 2. It ties in with the armor and I think you’ll dig it.
For interest and visual association, here are some images of the Destroyer armor, modern and vintage – despite what you may remember from the movie Thor a few years back, it takes on a few distinctive changes when actually worn by Thor.
Surely you're seeing my point here. If not, note the imagery of the black plate, the winged helm, the scarlet cloak, flames limming the helm, etc. Not hard to see the similarities here, right?
I’d also like to point out that in the pics of Thor wearing the black armor, he’s holding Mjolnir – his hammer made of the magical metal Uru described upthread. Allow me to toss your thought process over to another description:
Black armor, red blade. Jon carries a blade made out of the magical metal Valyrian steel. Just sayin.’
Brief aside: For clarity, re: the winged helm - I used that more as an example of shape....from artist depiction and text description, it's not very clear what Rhaegar's helm actually looked like. A couple of renderings show it as a helm with dragon wings and a single head, others have it as three heads sprouting from the top, etc. I think it's fair to say that it had some ornament that gave it the appearance of being "winged", if it wasn't outright winged.
tl;dr: the helm may not have been winged like Thor's, but it was probably similar in structure/appearance to Thor's while he was animating the armor.
Now, to return to Rhaegar’s black dragon armor.
This suit is attributed only to Rhaegar – it’s not said to be a hand-me-down from other Targaryen royalty. Obviously this was custom work – but by who? Tobho Mott doesn’t lay claim to this particular suit when boasting to Ned of his fine work:
However, given that Rhaegar supposedly kidnapped Ned’s sister, I can see how that would be a touchy mention, so OK. But let’s look again at Mott’s place of business:
Black and white doors. Stone knights in the armor of mythical creatures - chimeras, to boot. Part one creature, part another. And of course Tobho Mott is known not only for his beautiful armor, but his ability to work Valyrian Steel. Coincidence?
So if Tobho Mott, a Qohorik master armorer who knows the secrets and spells for working Valyrian Steel, fashioned this black dragon armor for Rhaegar, did he enchant it in some way? Or, is this armor actually much older, and given to him by someone else?
What happened to the armor after Rhaegar died? It was so fine and distinctive, I can’t imagine it being ignored or destroyed. Was it destroyed with his body, or……in the spirit of the Destroyer armor, was it reclaimed and hidden?
There’s been much hoo-rah about what secret lies in the Stark crypts – wedding cloaks, harps, wills, long-form birth certificates, etc. But, could the crypts – an underground Temple of Darkness – house a different sort of secret?
Crazy, yes….but no more crazy than the idea that Rhaegar isn’t really dead, which I’ll get to next.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 7, 2016 3:54:59 GMT
Intermission: Character Intros.I mentioned upthread that I wanted to return to what is basically an entire year of a 1960s Thor arc, as it is pertinent to the Black Armor/Destroyer. I have that just about finished up, but a good chunk of the first section was going to be character intro. While getting that in order, I got so wrapped up in one particular character that I thought it might be better to just break that out separately so as not to disrupt the flow of the rest, since it's pretty long. First, let me reiterate that for the purpose of this segment, Thor = Rhaegar. I've got something coming later that will link Rhaegar up with someone else too in a pretty big way, but for now, he's Thor. Interestingly, in terms of backstory and plot arc, Thor also shares many parallels with Daenerys…which isn’t really surprising if you think of Dany as being Rhaegar’s daughter, a reincarnated Rhaegar, assuming the mantle of Last Dragon, etc. Thor's not the person I want to talk about though, so let's move on to: Sif, Shield Maiden of Asgard (Journey into Mystery #102 March, 1964)Lady Sif, Stunning Sif, Fairest of the Fair, Dark-Haired Daughter of Asgard. Sif is an Asgardian warrior princess of reknowned beauty. Though an Asgardian like Thor and Odin, she traces her lineage through the line of the Vanir, a different line than the Aesir from which Odin and Thor originate. (The two races were once at war but united through marriage long ago - the modern race of Asgardians are a blend of the Aesir/Vanir.) Sif’s brother Heimdall is the sentinel of the bridge Bifrost (aka Rainbow Bridge). Sif and Thor were childhood friends, even playing with Loki. As a young girl Sif’s hair was the ‘Asgardian blonde’, but one night Loki cut off all of Sif’s long golden locks. A pissed-off Thor told Loki to fix it, so he had trolls craft Sif some magical hair – the hair was supposed to be golden like before, but Loki cheaped out and didn’t want to pay for it, so the trolls crafted Sif’s new hair from the blackness of the night instead…the strands grew long and dark and remained dark henceforth. (Note: In case it isn’t apparent, I interpret all this to be basically the Daynes and the Valyrians sharing a common origin, with Ashara having the purple eyes of her Valyrian ancestors but not the blonde hair. Needless to say I’m pretty sure the ASOIAF Loki counterpart had nothing to do with that.)Thor actually found Sif even MOAR attractive with the dark hair, and the two fell in love. However, the relationship was interrupted when Thor was banished to the Earth-realm by Odin and had his love affair with mortal Jane Foster. Thor and Sif go back and forth with their doomed relationship for a time, with end result being that they lurrrve each other but can’t be together for various reasons….one being that Sif dislikes Earth and wants to remain in magical Asgard. (Siffy is going to play a big part in the upcoming plot synopsis, but also aids Thor in a future battle/Modern Arc with the demonic God of Flame Surtur, which is a pretty big deal in the Marvelverse. This war involves quite a few of the Avengers and goes into the disastrous opening of the Casket of Ancient Winters, which is most awesome but will not be covered in this segment.)
Now, I want to talk a bit more about Sif correlating to Ashara Dayne. First, we have the two distinct bloodlines comingling into one, which is relevant if you buy into any Dayne/First Men = ProtoValyrian/Shared Valyrian ancestor theory. Then, there are examples of Targaryen/Dayne marriage throughout history – I’m admittedly fuzzy on whether or not such relations filtered down the the current members of House Dayne, but it’s possible that there is further blended dragon blood there. *I* feel that is plausible/likely, hence my support of the idea that Ashara and Rhaegar have common lineage somewhere up the tree. Next, playing off the childhood friendship of Sif and Thor – we don’t know how long Arthur Dayne was in service to the Crown, but as “Rhaegar’s oldest and closest friend”, I think there’s a good chance that they had known each other for a while. We also don’t know Ashara’s age, but I’d guesstimate that at the time of the tourney she was between 16-25, just like the rest of the Westerosi Brat Pack. My other guess is that Arthur is 5-10 years older, meaning that when Arthur entered service, Ashara was still a young child…and more than likely she and Rhaegar were acquainted before she ever came to court with Elia. Hell, for all we know, Rhaegar himself could have been the one that insisted on Ashara as a handmaiden to his new wife - wouldn’t be the first time in history someone has strategically placed a paramour in a coveted house position in order to be close…and it wouldn’t be first time in the story, either. Looking at you, Tyrion & Shae. Speaking of big brothers, let’s talk about Heimdall, Sif’s sibling – (Journey Into Mystery #85 1962) “The Norse God of Vigilance, Protection and Light” and guardian of the Bifrost bridge into Asgard. Heimdall is an extraordinary warrior and ally/friend to Thor, and his natural gifts of advanced sight/hearing/perception made him the ideal guardian. Minor related excerpt from the Marvel Universe Wiki: “When Asgard was invaded by the fire demon Surtur [who as I said above is going to be a big major deal later in my Marvelous coverage], Heimdall attempted to defend the gates, but was overcome, and the Rainbow Bridge was destroyed.”This is a nod to Summerhall, I think. Pretty certain Arthur wasn’t there, but IMO GRRM is utilizing the basic theme – fuck around with fire deities and you get burned…and probably witness the destruction of a structure of great significance to your realm.But to continue that train of thought with another side tidbit: “No longer needing to be stationary, Heimdall spent more time in Asgard, and became close to Amora the Enchantress.” So Heimdall had a brief love affair with character Amora the Enchantress (Journey into Mystery #103 1964, Avengers # 7 1964 ), who I have ID’d as Cersei…which makes perfect sense to me when you think about their respective pre-Rebellion locations and Cersei clearly working some kind of blood sugar sex magic to get Jaime appointed to the Kingsguard. Seducing the best and most valiant member of this exclusive club to bribe him into doing your bidding is a fantastic way to do that. And again…we’ve seen it before. *Arianne*cough*Arys* (Imma just drop this link HERE so you can enjoy a quick read of Enchantress to understand why I’m pegging Cersei as her counterpart – a full character bio will come later, but this should be a tasty appetizer.)
Oh, and the final aspect of that excerpt that you might like? “When Odin returned to Asgard after Surtur's defeat, he gave a portion of his power to Heimdall to rebuild the Rainbow Bridge, and Heimdall resumed his duties.” The only part of that I really care about is that Odin, the King of Asgard, commanded his guard to commence raising the significant structure from the ashes. We’ve talked about Rhaegar taking a long weekend to head to the ruins of Summerhall to sing/navelgaze and whatnot, and the location of the “Tower of Joy” being suspiciously close to Rhaegar’s favorite haunt. I have to wonder if there was a covert attempt to make it habitable again that we'll learn about in later books. (Maybe.)
Ok, enough segues…back to the synopsis. Obviously Heimdall has a parallel in Arthur Dayne – now, what does this have to do with SifShara? Well, not only is Sif his sibling, she is a Shieldmaiden of Asgard. Now, you might think that means “warrior” and imagine someone like Brienne, and that is true…but in real-world lore and even in lore of other fictional sagas (think Eowyn in LOTR), these are women who are certainly fierce and brave, but can also still be quite…feminine. From Wikipedia, “In the world of the sagas, women can be both honorable and remorseless, much like the male heroes. While a shieldmaiden does not fill a woman's typical role, her strength of character is found in even the more domestic women in these stories.” Though Marvel character Sif leans more toward the actual warrior-maid side, she is nonetheless a female that dreams of love and family while embracing her warrior tendencies. I think Ashara falls into this 'domesticated' category as well, and I would not be at all surprised to learn that she also plays a role for House Dayne, just as Arthur is the Sword of the Morning, that has yet to be revealed. Also, when you take into account GRRM’s SSM about Ashara not being nailed to the floor in Starfall/having horses and boats at her disposal for travel, I think this may be a hint that Ashara might have been more than just a pretty face…she had some substance, and may have been more than just window dressing with regard to events surrounding the Rebellion - she was an active participant. Here’s a nice recap of Sif’s role in the Marvelverse. I have tentatively labeled Jane Foster as Elia, although it’s clear Rhaegar didn’t have nearly the hots for Elia that Thor did for Jane. I underlined passages that I believe support the Elia association. Sif - Silver AgeSif first appeared in the Thor title as it was written under Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. With some fifty issues of Thor already under their collective belt, the two creators had already had and introduced a variety of supporting characters for the titles main protagonist the mighty Thor, including the books’ main romantic interest for the protagonist Jane Foster. [Main romantic interest for Rhaegar in ASOIAF is, of course, his wife.] They would introduce Sif in the modern area (Sif's first appearance in Journey Into Mystery #102 was a flashback) with a storyline wherein Jane Foster would travel to Asgard with Thor, Thor hoping that she would met Odin’s approval and be transformed into a god so the two could marry. Jane would fail Odin’s test, also failing to impress the all-father. [ I think Mama Martell was the instigator in the Rhaegar/Elia match, but either way, Elia fell short of Aerys’ approval despite her Targaryen blood.] After Jane Foster failed Odin's tests to win Thor's love, Sif was introduced, and she joined Thor on many adventures as a fellow warrior.
Sif would be introduced in this arc to essentially add another potential romantic interest for Thor as well as add another Asgardian supporting character, also one adapted from the real world Norse mythology like Thor. Sif would enter the scene with the Thor character heartbroken after losing Jane Foster. [Replace “losing” with “marrying” and I think we’ve got it.] Sif would be introduced as an immortal and warrior to contrast against Foster’s mortality and all too human fragility. [Although we haven’t seen this yet from Ashara, I think we might.] Aiding Thor in battle against the Lurking Unknown would spark new hope, romance and enthusiasm in the thunder god, and would also mark the beginning of Sif's role in the Marvel Universe.
To conclude, my biggest reservation with this entire segment of the Marvelous research is that Sif could very well be equally represented by Lyanna. From what we know of Lyanna, she absolutely meets all of the requirements of a shieldmaiden, she has a warrior brother or three that serve as guardian of an enormous structure that separates realms (and perhaps one of those brothers even had the greensight - although after reviewing a couple of passages I think it more likely that one brother had a different ability), and, if you believe the RLJers, she was Rhaegar’s one true love that could never be, ships that pass in the night, star-crossed lovers, etc. And it’s true…those things apply, and could be used as justification for either scenario. Whole picture though, I just feel like Ashara fills the Sif role better, especially when we get into the rest of the story (soon, soon.) For Sif and any of the characters noted below, I will leave you to judge after I lay out the Thor Arc in Part 2. Remaining Cast:The Ringmaster, aka Maynard Tiboldt (Incredible Hulk #3 September, 1962): leader of a small traveling circus gang known as the Circus of Crime, known for robbing rich spectators and members of noble class as they attend the show. Rotating roster of members that include both Americans and Europeans. Son of European Nazi whistleblowers who fled Austria after testifying against war criminals. They were later murdered for this activity. Maynard did not share their beliefs and was actually a Nazi sympathizer. **I go into this detail because my guess is that this character has a counterpart in the Smiling Knight and/or the Kingswood Brotherhood – a group that plays into the role of Rhaegar and the origins of the Rebellion IMO. Although we don’t have detail on The Smiling Knight, we know that he’s running around with a Toyne, and the Toynes have connection to the Blackfyres in Essos, etc etc.Ringmaster’s main cohorts in crime include: Bruno the StrongmanThe Human CannonballThe Clown The Great Gambonnos (these guys are twins and a partner act, so they are considered one person, more or less) Live Wire The Princess Python, the lone female of the group. Recall that the Kingswood Brotherhood claims: Simon Toyne Big Belly Ben Fletcher Dick Ulmer Oswyn Longneck Wenda the White Fawn, the lone female of the group. One 'charismatic' leader; six followers, 5 men and one woman. Hardy-har-har, George. Added fun: I am not going into individual arcs for the folks in each group, but I'll just say that each member mirrors another in the opposite group, be it in name, appearance, skill set, whatever. Thor: self-explanatory. Obviously his counterpart is Rhaegar Targaryen. As mentioned upthread, Thor in Planetos is a chimera himself - a little bit Rhaegar, a little bit Daenerys. Given the Rhaegar/Dany mind-meld that seems to be in play despite having never laid eyes upon each other like ever, I believe this is indicative of a 'deeper connection' and am not surprised in the least that the Marvel Thorumbrella covers them both. Not that we need a picture of Thor, but hey, whatever. Loki: This one is tricksy, because Loki has a TON of common elements with Littlefinger – their backstories are so similar it’s crazy, and I will lay that out in a different thread – but I’m starting to get the idea that Loki mirrors another character too. It’s really apparent in the following arc, because Petyr Baelish is really just a bit too young for the scenario. This means one of two things: either Loki doesn’t correlate solely to Littlefinger, or Littlefinger has a shadow connection to another character that hasn’t been revealed in the books yet – something that may actually be possible, when you think about it. Odin: self-explanatory. Father of Thor, immortal god, ruler of Asgard. Another tricksy one: when you read the arc below, it’s obvious that the main parallel is Aerys. HOWEVER....it’s pretty clear from the books that Aerys isn’t capable of being fully Odin-like with regard to his strength and power and magical influence. Yes, he’s Thor’s dad and the story fits, but I think it might be worth reexamining this to see if there’s another element to Aerys, some other one-eyed mystically-adept dude that’s good at pulling puppet strings behind the scenes, say, that more fully meshes with the whole enchilada of the Odin persona as pertains to this arc. Balder - tbd. I would like to hear some thoughts on this one after reading the next segment. Karnilla the Norn Queen - tbd. I have something worked out in my mind for her, but it's almost too crackpot to admit. Jane Foster - Elia Martell. In a pantsuit. Ulik – Thor 137 1967 – mightiest of the Rock Trolls. Lives deep in the caverns of Asgard along with the rest of his race. Parents killed by Frost Giants, went on to care for his brother Horth. A history of trying to wrest power away from Asgard (along with another troll king Geirrodur). First encounter with Thor was when trying to steal Mjolnir on order of King Geirrodur. Has battled Thor several times since, always losing. Like all rock trolls, “Ulik has an innate hatred of the Asgardians as they were driven underground by the King of the Norsegods, Odin, and forbidden to live on the surface.” Pretty sure the ASOIAF counterpart is going to be Gregor Clegane. Geirrodur - King of Rock Trolls. Father was master blacksmith of tribe – when he died in war with Storm Giants, Loki aided Geirrodur in overthrowing the current king and solidifying rule of the trolls. “Among Geirrodur's finest accomplishments during his reign was the design and construction of burrowing machines which, due to the Uru metal of their bits and scoops, could dig holes into other dimensions.” (So, you know, like mining the Rock where they live?) His rule was threatened only once, by Ulik in a defeated attempt to usurp the throne. (Do you like the outfit colors? ) Also: Asgard = King’s Landing Earth-realm = everywhere else Nornheim = I will swear that this is Harrenhal. Sounds crazy, but I really feel this. Reasons, I'll come back to later - Again, as with Baldur, I'd like to hear from the peanut gallery after reading Part 2. This is quite literally the ONLY picture I can find from the old comics. But, note the towers reaching toward the sky - and once inside, Nornheim is dark and cavernous and goes on forever.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 7, 2016 4:32:17 GMT
Thor: Vol. 1, 1967 #s 145-153 So what I’m going to do here is summarize the plot arc of the latter half of Thor Vol 1, 1967. This summary approximately covers issues #145-153. I’m not going to bog you down with unnecessary detail of each involved character, because I really want to focus on plot: who the players are, how they interact, how it resolves. I think you’ll find it…familiar.
These are VERY high-level summaries, btw.
Thor No. 145: "Abandoned on Earth!"
Thor, Sif, and Balder have been fighting a couple of bad guys on Earth, while Odin has been fighting another in Asgard. All are victorious, but Odin is seething over the attack on his person, so summons the three back to Asgard. However, only Sif and Baldur return – Thor stays behind on Earth. This makes Odin REALLY mad, so “the furious Odin decides to punish his son once more, by stripping him of his all his powers except for his strength.” Thor decides to say screw it and start a new life on Earth as a mortal. (Thor has already experienced his relationship with Jane Foster at this point.)
**I see the ASOIAF parallel to this as Aerys becoming disenchanted with Rhaegar after Duskendale and starting to threaten him with succession/disinheriting. Also, remember show-Barristan talking about how Rhaegar liked to go mingle with the commonfolk in KL, singing on street corners and in brothels and such?
Elsewhere, the Circus of Crime (aka Kingswood Brotherhood) is back in action, but they are down a member. The Ringmaster (Smiling Knight) begins looking for a replacement to pull off a big heist. Ringmaster isn’t having much luck until who should wander up in civvies but Thor…who is then attacked by the snake owned by Princess Python (Wenda the White Fawn). Thor fights off the snake and impresses the Ringmaster with his strength. Not recognizing Thor in his mortal form, the Ringmaster hypnotizes Thor in order to “put Thor into his thrall so that they can exploit the Thunder God in their crime capers”. The big heist that Ringmaster has planned is to “steal a statue of a bull made out of gold” – a statue that is so heavy only someone of Thor’s strength can lift it. Thor gets the job and becomes the newest member of the Circus of Crime.
Ok, so obviously I don’t think that Rhaegar is fighting snakes or hefting gold bulls. HOWEVER…I think it’s worth looking at the possibility that Rhaegar may have gotten mixed up with the KWB at some point – the KWB that eventually stole but some jewels and a kiss from Elia Martell, only wounded the LC of the KG, and was eventually brought to justice by Ser Arthur Dayne. Far too many connections here between all the major players for the KWB to not have significance in this plot somehow. Also, stealing a statue of a BULL (Hightower) made out of GOLD (remember the chest full of gold dragons stolen in the ambush?)?? Thor No. 146: "If the Thunder Be Gone!"Thor practices for the big heist of the golden bull. Princess Python starts to like him. “Before their first show together, the Ringmaster gives Thor the costume he is to wear during his performance: A mock-up of his actual costume .”
Uhhhh, Dragon Armor, anyone?
During the performance, the audience is tricked into believing they are seeing the real Thor do real Thor things, when in fact it is the real Thor in a fake costume under the spell of illusion. Thor also is surprised to see that Jane Foster - with a new lover – is in the audience.
Hmmm….interesting. What was Elia Martell up to during that trip through the Kingswood? I suspect she traveled to Dorne at some point after Rhaenys' birth, but was she alone?
After the show, Thor and the Circus members attack the museum where the golden bull is kept and rob the place of the statue. As Thor is carrying the statue out of the building, he takes police fire, which breaks the trance the Ringmaster has placed on him. In his confusion he drops the statue on Princess Python. Back in Asgard, Balder and Sif “see” these events unfold and fear for Thor’s life. Odin refuses to help until Thor makes amends with him/pays penance.
So my thought process here is that somehow or another, if Rhaegar was partnering with the KWB either intentionally or under duress, he got busted during the raid on Elia's caravan. Even were he in disguise, I've no doubt that both his wife and Gerold Hightower would have recognized him. Note that Princess Python is injured by Thor, too - that may be relevant later.
Thor No. 147: "The Wrath of Odin!"
Thor, now no longer under the Ringmaster’s hypnosis and still without his godly powers, is arrested for the theft. Princess Python frees herself from under the statue and tries to talk to the police on Thor’s behalf– when that doesn’t work, she pleads to the Ringmaster to help Thor, but the Ringmaster and the rest of the Circus – including Princess Python – flee the scene to avoid arrest. Thor has no memory of all the events preceding his arrest.
I find this implication interesting – Rhaegar perhaps being used by the KWB, who then ditch him when shit gets real. How convenient that Ray’s BFF Arthur Dayne goes to deal with the Smiling Knight himself. Oh, and have I mentioned yet that I think Lyanna Stark may have actually been Wenda the White Fawn/Princess Python? I'll crackpot that theory in full detail later, but right now will say that this actually makes a TON of sense when you put the pieces together, and could even explain the crowning at Harrenhal.
Meanwhile, Loki, who has been in exile under Odin’s order, is summoned back to Asgard. Odin releases Loki from exile on the condition that he stays out of trouble, and restores all of Loki’s powers. Sif and Balder protest Loki’s return, and plead to Odin to restore Thor’s powers as well. Odin refuses. This gives Loki the heads-up to his half-brother’s current predicament.
This is going to play into my forthcoming “Aegon IV vs. Aerys II – Fathers of Rebellion” essay in the Inversions forum. To give a hint, I’m going to explore the possibility that Rhaegar has a sibling (not Viserys) that has a pretty good shot at being a contender for the Iron Throne. Keep that in mind as you read all this.
Seeing an opportunity, Loki takes mortal form and fronts bail for Thor. As they are leaving the jail, Thor sees through Loki’s guise and the two do battle in the streets of New York City. As Loki has his powers and Thor does not, Loki overpowers Thor and begins to beat him into submission. Before he kills Thor, however, Sif and Balder arrive on Earth to help Thor. Loki threatens Sif and Balder with Odin’s reaction to their interference should he find out….which he does, because he’s, yanno, a GOD that can see all this stuff from his Asgardian perch. Odin fires down a bolt of mystical energy that strips them all of godly powers once again.
I think in order for much of this to really merge with ASOIAF, we have to figure out who Loki really is. I have a suspicion, but will keep it to myself for now. Takeaway though, “someone” is out to get Rhaegar, and Ashara/X know who it is. I believe this may be at the point where Aerys officially disinherits Rhaegar and perhaps sends Ashara Dayne from court.
Thor No. 148: "Let There Be...Chaos!"
Now, none of the Asgardians have powers anymore. Loki flees and goes away to return to his scheming; Thor, Balder, and Sif go sulk. Loki works a spell that contacts Karnilla the Norn Queen, and pleads to her to restore his powers.
Now we are getting into a really grey area here. Karnilla the Norn Queen is, in fact, Queen of Nornheim.
To sidetrack to Nornheim for a sec:
“Although Nornheim lies on the Asgardian land mass within Asgard's own dimension, and although Karnilla was apparently of the Asgardian race, she did not consider herself to be subject to Asgardian rule. Rather, Nornheim was an independent country, of which Karnilla was absolute monarch. Karnilla lived opulently in the ancient fastness of Nornkeep, attended by her servant, the aged minor sorceress Haag, and troops of guardian demons. Although there were many demons among her subjects, Karnilla's realm was also populated by humanoid immortals, just as was Asgard proper.” In addition to the Nornkeep where Karnilla dwells, Nornheim is also home to the Cave of Ages and the Norn Forest.
This screams “Harrenhal” to me, especially when you also take into account that Nornheim is the land of the Three Norns – the fates who oversee the Nine Worlds and have their lair in the roots of Yddrigasill, the World Tree. (To sidetrack to my future Kings essay again, it should be noted that Thor once visited the Norns in order to learn how to use the mighty hammer Mjolnir – a tale I suspect we may see play out with Rhaegar Targaryen and the sword Blackfyre. Anyway, I find it very exciting that the Norns told Thor that he could only wield the magic weapon after “facing Death” – which turned out to be the Death-Goddess Hela. Hela will reappear here shortly.)
Karnilla is a very powerful sorceress, her powers second only to Odin himself. Another point of interest here is that Karnilla went back and forth between aiding and antagonizing Asgard, conspiring against the Asgardian throne with Loki on multiple occasions. Her Achilles heel is that she is madly in love with Balder. “After years of resisting Karnilla's advances, Balder finally became Karnilla's lover. Some of Balder's Asgardian friends disapproved of the relationship, regarding Karnilla as a figure of evil. Karnilla regarded herself, however, as a harsh but just ruler.” They eventually hook up, but… "Balder was called away from Nornkeep to join the Asgardian prince Thor in his mission to rescue souls of Earth human beings from Hel. During Balder's absence, Karnilla was taken prisoner by the Frost Giants of Jotunheim, who were preparing an invasion of Asgard and first intended to eliminate Asgard's allies. The Frost Giants also transformed Karnilla's subjects into stone.”
Stone...dragons?
If Nornheim is actually Winterfell and not Harrenhal, I'm speculating that the MATERNAL line of Starks is going to prove to be pretty important – Lynarra Stark may be more than just an afterthought in the series after all (again going back to BranVras' Winterfell Huis Clois theory) – and it’s possible that we now know what happened to her/where she is. Frost Giants! Stone Dragons! LOL In the comics, good old Balder rescues his love from the Land of Always Winter, but maybe GRRM opted against that for his, we shall see.
/random segue
Elsewhere in the city, a criminal known as The Wrecker has evaded capture by the police after his latest robbery and is now looking for a new victim.
Ok, this is an area where I want to focus on the character and not the story. The Wrecker is going to be Robert Baratheon. Ignore the arc and stick to the person’s role in the story and the timing unfolds.
The Wrecker encounters Loki and targets him for a robbery – he breaks into the hotel room where Loki is seancing Karnilla and knocks him out…then finds only a few items to steal, one being Loki’s helmet. He puts that on…..aaannnd Karnilla chooses this time to show up and grant Loki his powers. She gives the guy in the Loki helmet his godly abilities and then disappears again, which is fine and great except that the guy in the Loki helmet isn’t Loki. Karnilla has empowered some other chump who is going use his newfound power to fuck stuff up.
Once again, we have a distinctive piece of armor being worn by someone not intended. Hey, anyone remember what Loki’s helmet looks like?
As compared to Robert’s?
Or maybe Renly’s full set of armor? This is the greatest.
Really George? Really?
Unfortunately, The Wrecker doesn’t get to KEEP the helmet. Loki wakes up and demands that Wrecker give him his powers. Wrecker gives Loki his helmet back but takes a polite pass on returning the power granted by Karnilla – Loki protests, and Wrecker teleports his trickster ass back to Asgard. Oops. Wrecker decides to use his new skillz (and his new enchanted crowbar, lulz) to continue his life of crime, this time amped to 11.
Anyway, while still drowning their powerless sorrows, Thor, Sif, and Balder catch the news on TV that Wrecker is wrecking NYC. They decide to stop him. Upon confrontation, Wrecker again uses his powers to send Balder and Sif back to Asgard, wanting to fight only Thor mano a mano. Once in Asgard, Balder and Sif plead with Odin AGAIN to give Thor back his powers. Odin is still mad at Thor and says nope.
IMO all of this is a parallel to the skirmishes and battles leading up to the Trident. Basically this segment of the arc corresponds to brutish and destructive Robert Baratheon getting his hands on power that he shouldn’t really have and doesn’t really know how to use beyond Hulk-Smashing the shit out of everything. Don't forget that Wreck-it Robert in this scenario is also working with/involved with the LokiGuy go-between - this individual has given Bob an advantage but with unintended consequences...Bob now likes being the Big Man on Campus and thinks he'll just keep that advantage for a while instead of giving it back as per the plan.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 11, 2016 22:47:39 GMT
Thor No. 149: "When Falls a Hero!"
Once again, a powerless Thor takes a beating from someone infused with godly abilities. Thor plays a mediocre defense while Sif and Balder can only watch from afar. After watching much ass-kicking, Sif and Balder decide to run interference with Odin to get him to come to Thor’s rescue. Loki learns of this plan and decides to steal the mystic crystal that lets Odin view the happenings in Earth-realm.
Again, more leadup to the main event – and I think the counterpart to stolen "mystic crystals" is basically someone successfully silencing Varys from whispering to Aerys. That someone may be Varys himself, I dunno.
Thor has been bested by the Wrecker several times by now, and while Thor attempts to revive again before the final count, the Wrecker continues his rampage of robbery and destruction. Balder and Sif gain audience with Odin and tell him that Thor faces certain death without his aid. Odin relents, having only wished to punish Thor, not kill him. Odin attempts to turn on his Mystic Crystal Pay-Per-View to watch his son's fight, but can't because it has been stolen...by Loki, big surprise. Of course everyone knows Loki did it, so Balder asks permission of Odin to go to Karnilla’s castle in Nornheim and get the crystal back.
And still more buildup to the Trident - "royalty" being beaten down by the "usurper" in multiple smaller skirmishes. So Ashara? & X? beg Aerys for help, and finally he agrees. It’s interesting to me that this now sends them off to find LokiGuy on their own. The parallel to this could be Ned’s journey back to Winterfell where he meets the Fisherman’s Daughter (who I am convinced is not a fisherman’s daughter at all; see: PrettyPig's Fisherman's Daughter Theory™), or maybe the mystery around Ashara and her loaner boats, not sure.
Just quoting that directly as is – nutshell, in the final battle between the titans, Robert the Wrecker slays Rhaegar Targaryen at the Trident. Rhaegar is dead. Or…is he?
Thor No. 150: "Even in Death..."
Having caused a building to fall on Thor the Not-So-Almighty, the Wrecker declares Thor well and truly dead, and leaves the scene of his victory. However…..Thor is visited by Hela (remember the bit the Norns predicted about ‘facing Death’?) who has come to claim his soul for Hel. (Hela (Journey Into Mystery #102 1964) is the goddess and ruler of the northernmost realms of the dead known as Hel and Niflheim. Her special dominion was over the souls of all who did not die in battle, and although she controls her own realm of the dead, she also hangs out with other Gods of Death from time to time. Oh, and she is also rumored to have been born in Jotunheim, realm of the Frost Giants. Just saying.)
(Sorry, another segue…just too good to pass up here. All those versed in Norse mythology (the non-comic kind) will appreciate this and probably know this already.)
“Niflheim is one of the Nine Worlds. It is the far northern region of icy fogs and mists, darkness and cold. It is situated on the lowest level of the universe. The realm of death, Hel is part of the vast, cold region. (A hell reserved especially for Starks??) Niffleheim lies underneath the third root of Yggdrasil, close to the spring Hvergelmir. Also situated on this level is Nastrond, the Shore of Corpses, where the dragon Nidhogg eats corpses and gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil."
Let’s talk about some other Points of Interest in Niflheim (all from the COMICS, mind you, not the true-life legends):
1) Ginnungagap ("yawning abyss") was the vast, primordial void that existed prior to the creation of the manifest universe. In the northern part of Ginnungagap lay the intense cold of Niflheim, and to the southern part lay the equally intense heat of Muspelheim. The cosmogonic process began when the effulgence of the two met in the middle of Ginnungagap. (Not entirely sure what that means, but I’m thinking of the great black chasm in Bloodraven’s cave.) 2) Hvergelmir, the eldest of the three wells protected by the dragon Nidhogg. Hvergelmir was the origin of all being and the place where every being will go back. (Now I’m thinking of the well in the Nightfort, and the Womb of the World.) 3) Elivagar ("unknown waves" or "poisonous stream") were the twelve streams, flowing out the Hvergelmir. The Elivagar filled the emptiness of Ginnungagap and froze in the regions of Niflheim. (Now I’m thinking about the Milkwater.) 4) Nastrond ("Corpse-Strand"), the land of the dead, was placed in Niffleheim and there stands Eljudni ("Plague"), the hall of Hel. (Um, "land of the dead"? The Others, and their wight army, hello.) 5) Hel is guarded by the hell-hound Garm (translation: “Howl”) – think Fenris Wolf meets Cerberus (with only one head). On the day of Ragnarok, Garm will join the Frost Giants in their fight against the Asgardians. The god of war Tyr** will kill the creature in this cataclysmic battle but will die from the wounds inflicted by the hound.
** Tyr was the eldest son of Odin, and originally the God of War and of Heroic Glory in Asgard famous for his courage. Later, a new god named Thor was born and became the new defender of Asgard, replacing Tyr in that role. Tyr has been resentful since. He distanced himself from his fellow gods only appearing when Asgard was in danger. His presence came to be seen as a sign that battle and the chance for glory were near. Tyr was a victim of cuckoldry and mocked by Loki at one moment. I'll say here that this is a good indicator that "Odin" is actually split between Aerys and 'someone else' - and this 'someone else' is the father of Tyr.
Just for fun, here are some pics of Garm. It’s eerie how much he resembles one particular non-human character in the series. Given that Garm guards the gates of Hel, this leads me to believe that Shaggydog/Rickon are actually going to serve a purpose...though perhaps not a particularly good or happy one. (this one is his real-world counterpart Fenrir, but you get my drift)
So, out of Niflheim and back to Asgard.....
Unaware that Thor has kinda-but-not-really died, Balder and Sif reach the realm of the Norn Queen. Loki and Karnilla have seen Thor perish through the mystic crystal, and now see Balder and Sif approaching. They send a “giant barbarian” to attack the pair – the giant gives Balder a run for his money, but Balder defeats him anyway.
Is this how Hodor begain Hodoring?? LOL Note: ACOK 30, Arya - Arya is marveling at Harrenhal's immense size and notes "Walls, doors, halls, steps, everything was built to an inhuman scale that made Arya remember the stories Old Nan used to tell of the giants who lived beyond the Wall." Also, @freyfamilyreunion posted a quote in the Old Nan Stories thread that struck a chord: "She (Arya) remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil Giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the Giants and escaped... But no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood." Given that Harrenhal is by all means a "dark castle" that seemed to have been built for giants, and that Balder is known as "Balder the Brave", it only makes sense.
So we have two separate associations with Harrenhal and Giants.... I will have to grab a few excerpts from TWOIAF about this as well, as there are mentions of giants existing far south of the Wall/in the River & Storm lands long ago. Just thought this was interesting.
Anyway...
Balder’s victory is short-lived, as he is then attacked a second time by the giant sentinels and drugged with sleeping potion. However, Sif has disappeared during the battle between Balder and the first giant. Turns out that she has been taken prisoner by Karnilla herself, and Karnilla has been cruelly showing her Balder and Thor’s battles for their lives. Karnilla offers to “help” Thor – she produces the Destroyer armor (that Loki had recovered from the Temple of Darkness where Odin had hidden it) and tells Sif that she can animate it with her own soul after which Karnilla will send the armor to Earth to aid Thor in his battle with the Wrecker.
Recall though that the downside to the Destroyer armor is that only certain people can wear it without going berserker - the armor was meant to destroy Gods - huge Gods, strong Gods, ANY Gods - so after the Wrecker’s defeat, Sif would be unable to control it from going after Thor and stomping him to royal jelly. In other words, exactly what Loki and Karnilla want.
Oooh, but wait....
I forgot the most important part of that first segment of this issue: Remember Hela stalking Thor's corpse from earlier? Hela can’t claim Thor’s soul as she intended, because Thor is still alive. ”However, before she can give Thor her killing touch, his still living body projects an astral image that stays her hand.“ THORHAEGAR AIN’T DEAD, YO.
Thor’s spirit won’t die, because he still has work to do – mainly to defeat the Wrecker. “As long as that threat exists, he cannot accept death.” So, with Hela’s help, Thor’s astral projection finds its way back to his mortal body, along with some of his missing powers. Some, but not all….and then lo, behold!
>>>THE DESTROYER APPEARETH.<<<
That’s right, the magic effing armor - animated by the soul of his longtime girlfriend!! Oh noes! Thor rushes the magic suit, intent on destroying it. Oh noes!
My thoughts on this are that “the Wrecker” (Robert B.) would be merely a symbol of a greater threat facing the realm that a not-dead Rhaegar would defy death to overcome. If Rhaegar was indeed obsessed with prophecy related to PtwP/AA/War for the Dawn 2.0 stuff, it makes sense to me that ‘someone’ might try to revive him. Or, based on the next segment, the person wearing Rhaegar’s black dragon armor wasn’t actually Rhaegar.
Thor No. 151: "To Rise Again!"
Unaware that his lover Sif’s consciousness is inside the Destroyer, Thor charges. Upon the attack, the base instincts of the armor began to take over and Sif loses control of the suit. As the Destroyer begins to gain the advantage, !plot twist! Odin’s trusted wizard has built another mystic crystal, and now Odin can see Thor about to get his ass kicked by the Destroyer! So naturally, Odin restores all of Thor’s godly powers at the last second – Mjolnir flies back into the mighty fist and Thor proceeds to pound the shit out of the armor! But, the Destroyer looses a disintegrator blast (one of the suit’s “features”- I think laser beams come from the eyeholes of the helm) and backs Thor into a dead end alley! Oh noes!
All the while, Loki and Karnilla gleefully watch the destruction unfold from the Nornkeep. Karnilla summons the captured Balder before her so that he can see Thor’s demise…and also so she can put the moves on him. Nice! BUT…enter Ulik the Rock Troll, crawling out of the depths of the Rock where he lives and serves his master Geirrodur (surname Lannister), to do his master’s bidding and kill them all! Ulik tells Karnilla that Geirrodur has ordered her death, and Balder offers a bargain – he will stand as her champion IF she frees him along with Sif. Karnilla agrees, and Balder and Ulik begin their fight.
Right, so, needless to say I don’t believe that we had an epic battle with Rock Trolls….but how fascinating that suddenly the monstrously-sized henchman of the King of the Rock shows up out of nowhere – literally, like not having been involved in any of this whatsoever until now – and starts threatening people with death, forcing enemies to become allies out of the clear blue.
Thor No.152: "The Dilemma of Dr. Blake!"
Thor is still locked in heated battle with the Destroyer, and still clueless that it’s being warged by his bae. At one point the Destroyer manages to get hold of Mjolnir and wield it against Thor…but just when all hope seems lost, the armor suddenly collapses, lifeless. Unbeknownst to Thor, Karnilla has pulled Sif’s soul from the armor to honor her part of the bargain with Balder in which he will fight the Rock Troll on her behalf. Thor is confused, but Odin has figured out that someone was manipulating the Destroyer armor, and now sees an opportunity to reclaim the suit.
Takeaway, the main squeeze of the hero is released from the warg-bond by the chick who cast the spell in the first place - and she's shaken up but otherwise fine.
Now that Thor’s not busy defending his life anymore and has some free time, Karnilla teleports him to the Asgardian Norn Realm and begs him to help Balder battle the Rock Troll. Thor happily steps in to back up his brony and starts fighting Ulik. Meanwhile, back in Earth-realm, the NYPD is trying to figure out what the heck the Destroyer armor is, and are relieved when a “museum curator” shows up to examine it. But oh, go figure, the “museum curator” is actually Odin in mortal disguise, and once again he spirits the Destroyer suit away to a hidden location so that it cannot again be used for evil. Good luck with that, Odinfather.
So the hero and his buddy come face to face with the Mountain. The bit about Odin retrieving the Destroyer, now this is where I really began to suspect that there might be just a teeny bit more to Odin than crazy old Aerys. Being cogent enough to sneak off with a special suit of armor in the immediate aftermath of a major battle doesn't sound very Mad Kingish, but I am thinking of another guy from the same family that could possibly pull this off - perhaps not personally given that he's somewhat 'indisposed', but absolutely with help from a more mobile and easily influenced individual.
While Odin is proving the incompetence of the NYPD, Thor and Ulik fight on. Thor finally delivers a blow that knocks Ulik into the Abyss of Shadows, but not with Mjolnir….because Loki, that thieving little bastard who has been watching from the sidelines and waiting for an opportunity, has stolen Thor’s hammer during the fight.
Something that tweaked my brain a little bit was the idea of Thor punting the Rock Troll back to the Shadows - this again made me think of Harrenhal, and I'll get to why in the next recap. Very Important Point: Loki has made off with Thor's hammer. You know, the Very Special Weapon made from the magical metal that's like, the hallmark of Thoriness?
Thor No.153: "But Dr. Blake Can Die!"
Loki has made off with Mjolnir, and Thor is about to assume his mortal form once again. (I won’t get into this.) Thor begs Karnilla to teleport him to Loki so he can get his hammer – Karnilla repays her debt for the troll trouncing by sending both Thor and Sif to Loki’s location in Earth-realm.
Loki (in mortal form) is teasing a police officer with the weight of Thor’s hammer when the hammer suddenly transforms into a walking stick – part of Thor’s mortal disguise. (I won't get into this either.) Loki realizes that Thor and Sif have arrived on Earth – but Thor is back to his mortal form. Loki transforms back into his godly form and goes to slay his powerless nemesis, but Sif steps in the way of the mystical blast that Loki fires at Thor and is knocked unconscious. Thor transforms back into Asgardian form and overpowers Loki, temporarily restraining him while he attends to Sif, who is gravely wounded. Loki escapes as Thor (in mortal form again) goes with Sif to the ER and tries to save her life, life that she sacrificed for him.
Oh ho ho. Sif takes the bullet for her man, huh? Recall that at the end of Sif's character intro upthread, I mentioned that Sif's arc could be mirrored by both Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark....I know several folks have mused on the possibility that Lyanna's "bed of blood" was NOT from childbirth bringing Jon Starkgaryen into the world, but due to a wound taken in battle. Interestingly enough, there's another character arc (a few, actually) that I have associated with Lyanna's story (this will appear later in Modern Arc), and this exact thing happens there as well. Apparently Stan the Man and George are big fans of the whole "I will give my life for you!!" concept.
Back in the Norn Realm, Balder cannot bring himself to slay a woman, even an evil one like Karnilla. Karnilla still tries to win his love and thanks him profusely for his part in defeating Ulik…who you just THOUGHT had disappeared forever into the Abyss of Shadows but is in fact clinging to some rocks and crawling out RIGHT NOW, and will return again later to wreak havoc and despair at his Rock Troll master’s command.
All right, so...the Mountain and Harrenhal. Think back to Jaime's recollections of Rhaegar prior to his death at the Trident - ASOS 37, while hot-tubbing with Brienne...at Harrenhal, no less.
followed by:
Now I realize that we are all familiar with GRRM's poor time and logistics skills, (or as Kingmonkey has so aptly put it, "GRRM + numbers = nope, nope, nope"), but even the most stringent suspension of disbelief can't make sense of how in seven hells Tywin Lannister marched from frigging Casterly Rock to King's Landing with all his troops upon hearing of Rhaegar's demise, and STILL managed to beat Nedbert "racing south" from the Trident half the distance away.
Well, here's how: Tywin didn't march from Casterly Rock. He was hanging out at Harrenhal, and had been for a good portion of the time. No raven answered Aerys'/Rhaegar's summons, because Tywin wasn't at the Rock to receive it. Tywin was able to get to King's Landing after the Trident faster than Ned, because he was closer.
Anyway, the bit about Thor kicking Ulik's troll ass and sending him reeling to the Abyss of Shadows, only to escape again, makes perfect sense if you think about it - IF Tywin figured out where Rhaegar , the Norn Queen, Ashara, Lyanna, etc were having their secret party and decided to crash it, he sends his oversized minion to take care of business. But, the Mountain is driven back/never finds them, so he has to crawl back to Tywin empty-handed...until he later gets those hands on Elia Martell and the children during the Sack.
Point being, I think this segment about the rock trolls is a big Mountainous hint that we should reconsider the whereabouts of Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane during the latter part of the Rebellion.
/conspiracy
Let's wrap up Thor: Mjolnir is gone. Sif is hurt.
Loki manages to access the mind of a police officer on scene for the transport of Sif to the hospital, and transports himself to the operating room where Sif is undergoing lifesaving surgery. Once again, Loki and Thor duke it out – Thor’s superior strength gains him the upper hand, but Loki uses his magic powers “to try and freeze Thor solid with incredible cold.” (!! Who IS this guy??!?! )
Odin, sick of watching his kids fight and feeling the weight of an impending doom that threatens all of Asgard, demands that they knock it off and go read a book or play outside or something. “With no choice but to comply, Thor and Loki cease their battle, and Thor is forced to let Loki escape so that they can prepare for the coming battle. Thor vows to help protect Asgard from any evil that may threaten it and flies off to answer Odin's summons.” That impending doom that's got Odin so chuffed? Ragnarok.
(I should say that this arc continues until Issue No. 157....and these remaining issues deal with the release of an evil creature called Mangog, whose sole purpose in life is to destroy Asgardians and the world by bringing about Ragnarok. He almost succeeds. It's a cool continuation that I may pick up in a later post.)
THE END
And there you have it - ONE of the Marvel versions of Robert's Rebellion. I hope this generated some thought and caused some synapses to fire, as I would love to hear what others think about the characters and story.
To conclude, I just want to point out this awesomesauce picture. I have GOT to figure out who Loki really is in this series.
Again, many thanks to those that powered through.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Mar 12, 2016 1:58:35 GMT
I enjoyed this and am looking forward to the rest. I must say after a few minutes into my read of Destroyer I thought of another character. The mystery knight of the Harrenhal Tournament. The armor is not described like the Destroyer, but I can't help but see this. Howland Reed wished for vengeance then prayed to the old gods while facing the Isle of Faces. The Isle of Faces where the greenmen live. Who have or wear antlers. Then the Mystery Knight appears.
Sorry to sidetrack, but I had to comment.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 12, 2016 15:19:35 GMT
The mystery knight of the Harrenhal Tournament. The armor is not described like the Destroyer, but I can't help but see this. Howland Reed wished for vengeance then prayed to the old gods while facing the Isle of Faces. The Isle of Faces where the greenmen live. Who have or wear antlers. Then the Mystery Knight appears. Interesting....and could work. The second half is now up, so give that a read and maybe work in the KotLT as an angle. These roads could lead anywhere!
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 12, 2016 15:59:24 GMT
My thoughts on this are that “the Wrecker” (Robert B.) would be merely a symbol of a greater threat facing the realm that a not-dead Rhaegar would defy death to overcome. If Rhaegar was indeed obsessed with prophecy related to PtwP/AA/War for the Dawn 2.0 stuff, it makes sense to me that ‘someone’ might try to revive him. Or, based on the next segment, the person wearing Rhaegar’s black dragon armor wasn’t actually Rhaegar. Oh my. One of my old, old theories that brought many boos my way. I would love it if this proves true! Right, so, needless to say I don’t believe that we had an epic battle with Rock Trolls….but how fascinating that suddenly the monstrously-sized henchman of the King of the Rock shows up out of nowhere – literally, like not having been involved in any of this whatsoever until now – and starts threatening people with death, forcing enemies to become allies out of the clear blue. Thank you for reminding me about Ser Gregor. He's been Tywin's loyal and vicious dog for a long time, however I think there is another "mountain" sized man or at least another rock troll. It could be Sandor, and it could be Littlefinger if we consider his family sigil, but I'm currently trying to think of others for one of my other Chapter essays when GRRM refers to the Mountain. Oh ho ho. Sif takes the bullet for her man, huh? Recall that at the end of Sif's character intro upthread, I mentioned that Sif's arc could be mirrored by both Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark....I know several folks have mused on the possibility that Lyanna's "bed of blood" was NOT from childbirth bringing Jon Starkgaryen into the world, but due to a wound taken in battle. Interestingly enough, there's another character arc (a few, actually) that I have associated with Lyanna's story (this will appear later in Modern Arc), and this exact thing happens there as well. Apparently Stan the Man and George are big fans of the whole "I will give my life for you!!" concept. Do you suppose there was a friendship between Ashara and Lyanna? Actually, I'm looking for a friendship of three women represented in the modern story by three Sand Snakes: Obara, Lady Nym, and Tyene. Well, here's how: Tywin didn't march from Casterly Rock. He was hanging out at Harrenhal, and had been for a good portion of the time. No raven answered Aerys'/Rhaegar's summons, because Tywin wasn't at the Rock to receive it. Tywin was able to get to King's Landing after the Trident faster than Ned, because he was closer. This is an awesome theory that Tywin was at Harrenhal. He must have had spies at the Trident. Point being, I think this segment about the rock trolls is a big Mountainous hint that we should reconsider the whereabouts of Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane during the latter part of the R ebellion.I agree. The Captain of Guards POV chapter may provide the clues you are looking for. I'm hoping to finish it soon...maybe today, or at least within a week.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 12, 2016 17:21:42 GMT
Thank you for reminding me about Ser Gregor. He's been Tywin's loyal and vicious dog for a long time, however I think there is another "mountain" sized man or at least another rock troll. It could be Sandor, and it could be Littlefinger if we consider his family sigil, but I'm currently trying to think of others for one of my other Chapter essays when GRRM refers to the Mountain. Sandor was possibly a lesser troll, but due to his age at the time I don't think he would have been the main guy. IMO it's far more likely he was observing his brother's acts from the sidelines and not necessarily agreeing with it, but not being in a position to do anything about it either - hence a lot of that anger, bitterness, and disillusionment surrounding Gregor. (If you go back to the character bios, you'll also see that Ulik the Rock Troll has a younger brother Horth - Ulik had to assume care of Horth after the sudden death of their father (who was killed by drunk Frost Giants, no less). Obviously a perfect mirror for the brothers Clegane.) Something also to consider - Gregor Clegane being knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen. This is interesting to me because Gregor was supposedly 17 at the time of the Sack in 283. So, when was he knighted? Obviously before the Rebellion, right? According to Sandor, Gregor was 16 when sworn in by Rhaegar...which puts this smack in the middle of the Rebellion or at least in the early stages of it. Sandor also holds a lot of resentment around this, too - this could be strictly related to Gregor's overall character and the undeservedness of this honor, but I have to wonder if there's more to it. Having gathered all of these puzzle pieces, I'm now trying to put together a picture similar to what you laid out in your Tywin essay: Rhaegar was working with Tywin during the Rebellion, and Tywin, who was playing both sides all along, double-crossed him at the end.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 12, 2016 17:27:43 GMT
Rhaegar was working with Tywin during the Rebellion, and Tywin, who was playing both sides all along, double-crossed him at the end. eee-Yup!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Mar 13, 2016 5:37:59 GMT
This is miraculous Some Pig No DoubtI need time to read the rest but a few comments on the first plate of gloryishiousness Uru is not only easy to enchant, but also absorbs magic like a sponge, redirecting it and enhancing the natural attributes of his wielder. I'll get back to this, just making a note of it for now. capable of manipulating the molecular structure of most materials and matter itself for a variety of purposes, including transmutation What I appreciate about this fact is that it could mean a chemical or physical change to ice or wood or metal, but more interestingly it can mean changing species - skinchanging or warging as it were? These abilities enhances by the proximity of certain magical objects (see first thing I quoted). In other words, you can warg the armor, but there are consequences for staying. Just like the consequences for warging. So if Tobho Mott, a Qohorik master armorer who knows the secrets and spells for working Valyrian Steel, fashioned this black dragon armor for Rhaegar, did he enchant it in some way? Or, is this armor actually much older, and given to him by someone else? Not sure if you remember an old convo in H, about Mott splitting Ice, and the strange red/grey coloration he couldn't remedy. As if something inherent in Ice was beyond his capacity to alter, and although he could reforge Valyrian steel, he could not forge it from scratch. Possibly the armor was reforged from something else? So if Mott were to have made the armor, he need not be the source of its magic. Also the concept of an empty suit of armor is blowing my mind. That'll do pig
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Mar 14, 2016 2:55:23 GMT
Glad you guys liked it! I'll get back to this, just making a note of it for now. I told you in your Thory thread that I touched on Mjolnir, but not a ton. I knew you'd like that though, and will let you do the honors on magical metal if you so desire. I'll say for now, in case it isn't obvious, that I believe Mjolnir = Blackfyre/Dark Sister. Have an info-dump crackpot on that I will lay out here soon, but I am convinced that Rhaegar either 1) had it, or 2) knew where it was and was trying to get his hands on it. ETA: does anyone else think it's weird that Aegon I and Visenya both had very distinguished and recognizable swords, but nothing is ever said of Rhaenys' weapon of choice? The dragon has three heads, you know. Just putting that out there.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 19, 2016 17:39:20 GMT
Let me just comment on the first two segments before delving into the rest. Great job Pig, honestly don't know how you can keep track of all this. Sound like another metal we know? ) Which metal would that be? Sorry you lost me here. Are you saying that Valyrian Steel is imbued with the spirits of actual people too? Not arguing against it, just kinda lost in wonder here. I'd not thought of that possibility before now, I don' think. Black and white doors. Stone knights in the armor of mythical creatures - chimeras, to boot. Part one creature, part another. Just going to be a grammar nazi here and let you know that union of human and animal, as described in that quote of armour that turns men into a griffin and unicorn is called Therianthropy. Sometimes it's called zoanthropy too. But I do understand what you're alluding to. You use the word chimera, later on in that same essay, and that time you used it correctly -- the medical definition, of having two sets of genes in one body. Sorry I'm being a stickler. I just happen to have a deep love of these hybrids, and I like to refer to them properly. Hell, for all we know, Rhaegar himself could have been the one that insisted on Ashara as a handmaiden to his new wife - wouldn’t be the first time in history someone has strategically placed a paramour in a coveted house position in order to be close…and it wouldn’t be first time in the story, either. Looking at you, Tyrion & Shae. Thank you! Finally someone else that believes Ashara was placed in Elia's service to accommodate Rhaegar, by Rhaegar. There is also the possibility that Arthur helped, or aided and abetted this situation, just like Bron does for Tyrion. Speaking of big brothers, let’s talk about Heimdall, Sif’s sibling – (Journey Into Mystery #85 1962) “The Norse God of Vigilance, Protection and Light” and guardian of the Bifrost bridge into Asgard. Heimdall is an extraordinary warrior and ally/friend to Thor, and his natural gifts of advanced sight/hearing/perception made him the ideal guardian. Oh please, there are so many allusions here, they're hard to count! So Heimdall had a brief love affair with character Amora the Enchantress (Journey into Mystery #103 1964, Avengers # 7 1964 ), who I have ID’d as Cersei…which makes perfect sense to me when you think about their respective pre-Rebellion locations and Cersei clearly working some kind of blood sugar sex magic to get Jaime appointed to the Kingsguard. Seducing the best and most valiant member of this exclusive club to bribe him into doing your bidding is a fantastic way to do that. This is brilliant. How did I never think of this before? We know Cersei some how managed to get Jaime in the KG, but we have no idea how. Looking at everything we know about Cersei and how she operates, of course her go to method of persuasion would be what's between her legs. How many times did she tell Sansa her tits and her c u next tuesday were her best weapons in the game? This is great stuff
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Post by Ser Duncan on Mar 19, 2016 20:28:28 GMT
Hmmm….interesting. What was Elia Martell up to during that trip through the Kingswood? I suspect she traveled to Dorne at some point after Rhaenys' birth, but was she alone? Oh wow, what an implication! Wasn't she travelling with her uncle? Is there more there than we know about? Or indeed is the other man actually Ashara? I have no problems with Ashara having arrived as a handmaiden, by way of being Rhaegar bit on the side, and then being turned to being Elia's bit on the side, after the events of Harrenhal. IMO all of this is a parallel to the skirmishes and battles leading up to the Trident. Basically this segment of the arc corresponds to brutish and destructive Robert Baratheon getting his hands on power that he shouldn’t really have and doesn’t really know how to use beyond Hulk-Smashing the shit out of everything. Don't forget that Wreck-it Robert in this scenario is also working with/involved with the LokiGuy go-between - this individual has given Bob an advantage but with unintended consequences...Bob now likes being the Big Man on Campus and thinks he'll just keep that advantage for a while instead of giving it back as per the plan. But that wasn't exactly how Robert is characterised is it? Yes, he smashed through a lot of enemies, but remember he turned some of those enemies into allies that ultimately helped Robert's forces over come Rhaegar's on the Trident. I'm thinking the bit about Karnilla turning her victims into allies has some influence here. Fisherman’s Daughter (who I am convinced is not a fisherman’s daughter at all; see: PrettyPig's Fisherman's Daughter Theory ™By the Old Gods and New, will you please, please reprint this theory here! I forgot the most important part of that first segment of this issue: Remember Hela stalking Thor's corpse from earlier? Hela can’t claim Thor’s soul as she intended, because Thor is still alive. ”However, before she can give Thor her killing touch, his still living body projects an astral image that stays her hand.“ Ah but Hela has no claim to Thor's soul! Thor died in battle, so he wouldn't be going to Hel, he'd be going to Valhalla. So there's a mistake in there that can be applied Rhaegar as well. He can't have been burned in the usual Targ fashion, because it would be the wrong end to his life. He's not destined to be burned, because it's not his ultimate destination. He's for the Hall of Heroes, not the unapplauded Hel of everyone else. The Valkyries need to come and claim him, not Hela. Now who could these women be that claimed him? Silently perhaps? Right, so, needless to say I don’t believe that we had an epic battle with Rock Trolls….but how fascinating that suddenly the monstrously-sized henchman of the King of the Rock shows up out of nowhere – literally, like not having been involved in any of this whatsoever until now – and starts threatening people with death, forcing enemies to become allies out of the clear blue. Erm, couldn't the Rock Troll also apply to the Baelish line? They have a stone titan as their sigil. Now stay with me, Petyr is under Hoster's care, which would mean that something Petyr said or did could've caused Hoster to intervene and the Rock Troll coming out of nowhere is actually Hoster acting quietly on behalf of the Rebellion. See where I'm going with this? Point being, I think this segment about the rock trolls is a big Mountainous hint that we should reconsider the whereabouts of Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane during the latter part of the Rebellion.
I agree, Tywin was not in Casterly Rock, and like you suggest was actually at Harrenhal. Now HH is in the Riverlands and is under Hoster's control. So going back the stone titan, what if this is the start of Baelish influence? If Tywin is in the Riverlands, then Hoster must be aware of it. What if Hoster was feeding information, on the quiet, to Tywin, with messages sent to him by Petyr, while Petyr was banished after the fight with Brandon and his affair with Lysa?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Mar 21, 2016 15:49:33 GMT
I'm going to suggest a slightly different take on the Destroyer armor. I think GRRM's version of the empty shell of armor may be Gregor Clegane.
Assuming this vision was Gregor (or at least puppet Gregor), then my thought is, someone warged Gregor, entering him like someone's psyche would enter the destroyer armor, and animated him.
So my guess is, someone warged Gregor when he entered into King's Landing and killed Elia and the infant.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 21, 2016 16:17:57 GMT
What I have been finding with my Wheel of Time project there are multiple people doing the same thing. Every time the wheel comes around full circle, somebody else is doing the same damn thing somebody else did in the past, and I can see Rhaegar using magic armor, and then Gregor Clegane also using magic armor, only in his case he has a maester's help...well, maybe Rhaegar had a maester's help too?
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