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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 15:56:16 GMT
This is based on an old discussion from over two years ago.The premise is that Robb spontaneously tried to warg Grey Wind as he was dying, but was unable to because of Grey Wind's death. Instead, he rebounded back and entered Cat instead. The major clues for this would be found in the Red Wedding Chapter and Varamyr's Prologue. The raking at the eyes is a pretty strong parallel! freyfamilyreunion asked how this would have worked with Beric's resurrection of Cat. There may be some more to the prologue chapter, I have to take a look. It's also possible that there is something there about Coldhands as well. We know Wargs can enter and leave a living creature at will. We know that the hivemind (for lack of a better term) of the WW/Others can enter the bodies of the dead, and seems to leave the bodies of the dead due to fire. Could be something there to work with. But a more simple answer might be that Robb fled Cat's body and entered something else. Possibly confused as hell, and following the course of her body down the river until her resurrection. He re-enters her body to rally support and take revenge against the Freys etc. Actually there are a lot of clues in the Lady Stoneheart chapters too, where it's much easier to imagine Robb in the role she plays rather than Cat.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 5, 2016 16:29:38 GMT
My understanding of warging and skinchanging in general is that this could not be accomplished after Robb's body died. Skinchangers must have a connection to their own living body to move from host to host. Once their body dies that connection is severed and they float loose like someone let go of a helium balloon. They have no control over where they go. Varamyr only got sucked into One Eye, because he still had a connection to him. So, the only way Robb's spirit could have entered Catelyn after his body died was if he already had a connection to her. Basically there would need to be evidence that he skinchanged into her while yet alive.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 5, 2016 22:16:08 GMT
I'm wondering, in Varamyr's prologue, when he is floating around, and as Mel says, he then gets sucked into One-Eye because there was already that connection there. Well what if Robb did the same thing? He floated around in the trees, rock and streams until Cat was reborn and then he entered her body?
The connection is there, regardless of whether or not he's ever skinchanged her, because she is his mother. There is always a connection between child and parent. The mother-son bond was actually quite strong between these two. Stronger than with any other paring, aside from Cersei and Joff, which was more a power struggle than a mother-son bond. Cat is always with Robb, until he sends her away. Even then she returns and is by his side when they both die. Cat is connected to almost all her children in a deep and personal way. She cares for Bran so much she neglects herself, then she cares Robb, following him everywhere and constantly giving him advice and support, until she 'betrays' him for his sisters. Cat loves her daughters just as much as them, she willingly commits treason to try and save her girls. I can't think of any bond, that isn't a skinchanging bond, stronger than the one Cat has with her kids.
So long way of saying, if Robb floated in the in-between long enough, he could've easily been sucked into Cat when she was resurrected. Their bond is enough for him to be able to enter her body, especially when you consider at one point he was actually part of her while in the womb.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Apr 5, 2016 22:21:04 GMT
Also it's possible that Robb wasn't quite dead (just mostly dead) when Cat went bat-shit crazy (pun intended Lothston fans) and started clawing her face up. So perhaps Robb jumped into Cat as he was dying, while she was busy cutting Jinglebells' neck.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 5, 2016 22:26:08 GMT
Also it's possible that Robb wasn't quite dead (just mostly dead) when Cat went bat-shit crazy (pun intended Lothston fans) and started clawing her face up. So perhaps Robb jumped into Cat as he was dying, while she was busy cutting Jinglebells' neck. Loved the bat-shit crazy joke by the way...say did someone already mention that Catelyn raked her face with her fingernails? If so, that is a lot like Thistle.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 23:03:59 GMT
say did someone already mention that Catelyn raked her face with her fingernails? Yup, right in the OP actually, lol Such a striking image. GRRM chose to repeat it for Cat and for Thistle.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 23:07:15 GMT
So perhaps Robb jumped into Cat as he was dying, while she was busy cutting Jinglebells' neck. Cat does have a disconnect of sorts. Finally someone took the knife away from her. The tears burned like vinegar as they ran down her cheeks. Ten fierce ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it on her lips.
It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Apr 5, 2016 23:10:27 GMT
Also it's possible that Robb wasn't quite dead (just mostly dead) when Cat went bat-shit crazy (pun intended Lothston fans) and started clawing her face up. So perhaps Robb jumped into Cat as he was dying, while she was busy cutting Jinglebells' neck. Loved the bat-shit crazy joke by the way...say did someone already mention that Catelyn raked her face with her fingernails? If so, that is a lot like Thistle. It's not directly stated in the text, but it's implied: "Ten fierce Ravens were raking her face with sharp talons and tearing off strips of flesh, leaving deep furrows that ran red with blood. She could taste it one her lips...Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown." I think the ten fierce Ravens were her own fingernails. ETA: Weaselpie beat me to it.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 5, 2016 23:31:22 GMT
And this is how it happened with Thistle --
“Get out, get out!” he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out. The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 23:33:48 GMT
ty Dunc! I'm also reading through that chapter again right now
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 5, 2016 23:37:10 GMT
Very interesting. I never thought of it this way. Although we don't read an inner monologue about her fighting Robb from entering her.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 23:43:19 GMT
[Robb] had an arrow in his side, a second in his leg, a third through his chest. Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late.
...‘‘No.’’ Robb’s voice was whisper faint. ‘‘Mother, no . . .’’
‘‘Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself . . . if not for me, for Jeyne.’’
‘‘Jeyne?’’ Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. ‘‘Mother,’’ he said, ‘‘Grey Wind...’’
‘‘Go to him. Now. Robb, walk out of here.’’
...They could do as they wished with her; imprison her, rape her, kill her, it made no matter. She had lived too long, and Ned was waiting. It was Robb she feared for. ‘‘On my honor as a Tully,’’ she told Lord Walder, ‘‘on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boy’s life for Robb’s. A son for a son.’
...Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 5, 2016 23:46:33 GMT
The language is so crazy similar!
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Apr 6, 2016 0:07:28 GMT
Weasel Pie , Imma PM you a link that you may find interesting.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 6, 2016 0:15:21 GMT
That's weird indeed. ;/
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