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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 10, 2017 15:52:44 GMT
Some Pig No Doubt 's Marvel thread brought me in a roundabout way to poking at Wonder Man, and something stood out for me since I'm considering that the Blue Roses (or whatever makes them blue) act as a sort of "key" metaphorically to pass through the wall and survive the wards place on it. From the old teutonic tale, the blue flower was place in their caps to open the doors to the hidden place under the mountains where there was treasure and possibly a missing king. Anyway, Wonder Man has many parallels to Jon. Turns out, he needed a special weekly potion in order to retain his powers and stay alive. Curious if the Blue Flower idea was influenced by this notion in Marvel. Just like the weirwood paste opens Bran's third eye, and the Shade of the Evening seems to mess with time/dimensions - based on the similaries in description of Bran eating the paste and Dany drinking the Shade - maybe there is another hidden use for the Blue Roses (or whatever makes them blue). Maybe a potion made from the blue roses is needed for "coldhanded" Starks to pass the Wall?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 10, 2017 16:53:30 GMT
Anyway, Wonder Man has many parallels to Jon. Turns out, he needed a special weekly potion in order to retain his powers and stay alive. ORLY This guy approves! lol
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 10, 2017 17:55:23 GMT
I can't help my thoughts returning to Ossifer Plumm fathering an heir with a six foot cock, because he died on his wedding day yet his wife bore a son, Brown Ben Plumm. Either Aegon the Unworthy was his true father or we may have an example of the dead fathering children.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 10, 2017 18:02:14 GMT
All right, I'm going to dump a bunch of random and unorganized thoughts on the idea of UnLya. Perhaps we can combine them with some other ideas in this thread and come up with something that makes sense. First, returning to these prior topics: 1 - the thought that I know some - Weasel Pie - have toyed with for a while : that of Lyanna birthing Jon/dying much earlier in the war than believed. 2 - Rhaegar wanting/needing a Special Magic Baby. 3 - Lyanna having some kind of association with the Kingswood Brotherhood and Wenda the White Fawn. 4 - Lyanna's "relationship arc" being inverse to Dany's : marriage of necessity is first (betrothal to Robert), wild fling is second (Smiley or someone else - Brandon?), forced marriage & conception of Prophecy Child is last (undetermined). I'll start with the Dany/Viserys relationship because there are some things to highlight. Viserys - older brother of Dany, uncle to sister’s child. He starts negotiations with Khal Drogo, the "king", through 3rd party Illyrio. He trades sister for rebel army so he can wage his war and claim crown He will take sister and Eggs back if Drogo doesn't hold up his end of bargain. Viserys doesn’t care about the Dany's baby, will kill it/leave it if he doesn't get what he wants - his 'crown'. Drogo is not impressed, kills Viserys instead. Dany's babe is a foal on his fathers side, not a bastard. Babe goes through blood magic ceremony, born dead as unexpected half human monster, Dany gets ill during the birth but survives. So to start, I have laid out both a parallel situation and an inverse situation to this for Rhaegar/Lyanna/Brandon, and I can post that in a bit. What I want to focus on now is the motive and the baby. So Viserys' entire reason behind literally horse-trading his sister to a group of barbarians is to get an army that will back him in retaking the Iron Throne. Vis believes that the throne is his birthright - he was born to be king, so he will invade Westeros with his 'horde of Dothraki screamers'. Interestingly, Rhaegar also had a belief driving him, albeit one of a different sort - an ancient prophecy having to do with The Prince that was Promised. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'" "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.
Then I paired that concept with this, from Dany: That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.and this, from Jorah: "At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners— did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar's cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?" Put all this together: Viserys wanted the alliance of the Dothraki because they were a nearly unstoppable force: "Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident," Ser Jorah admitted, "but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?" Rhaegar had his prophecy, he had his 'cause', and in Dany's dream(s) in which she channels Rhaegar, she is seeing the invading army armored in ice. An army not a bronzed screaming horde, but a cold and silent one.The Other slid forward on silent feet. "And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—" The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow.
Her dragonflame melts them away, and she thinks this is how it was meant to be. So here's my thought: Rhaegar knew the Others were coming - whether by vision or prophecy, he knew that this battle was looming. What then is a dragon prince to do, then, to fight off the threat to Westeros from a quiet icy horde of invaders? (The inverse to dragon prince Viserys invading Westeros with his screamers.) HE GETS A DRAGON. Rhaegar needed a dragon to fight off the Others - or for Aegon to, later - so he sets off on his quest to make one...one that can be full-grown and ready for war by the time the Others arrive, a war that will go down in the annals of history, that the bards will pay homage to for centuries thereafter as they sing of the battle between the dragons and the ice golems in THE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE. And the hero of this battle will be the dragon, of course...one Rhaegar and/or Aegon Targaryen. But first...where to get the dragon? What's the recipe? cont.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 10, 2017 19:32:52 GMT
Rhaegar needed a dragon to fight off the Others - or for Aegon to, later - so he sets off on his quest to make one. But first...where to get the dragon? What's the recipe? Fire and blood, in some literal and figurative sense? Incest and blood magic? Not ice. I don't think... I've always figured Rhaegar wanted Lyanna's baby because it was foreseen to be the ENEMY of Aegon. This is good stuff! Can't wait to read the rest.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 10, 2017 20:52:36 GMT
Next, I want to focus on the middle relationship of Dany's arc - the fling with Daario.
So after Dany becomes a widow and decides to conquer Westeros on her own, dammit, she gets involved with Daario Naharis, mercenary leader of the Stormcrows out of the Free Cities. Daario himself could be considered "cruelty and chivalry all rolled into one", given that his first act to honor and swear allegiance to the dragon queen is to bring her a bag of severed heads. Anyway, not going to do a huge comparison of Dany and Daario's arcs other than to note the obvious: -they have a serious physical connection -Dany loves his over-the-top personality and his swagga, but is bothered by his violence -Dany wishes they could be together but knows this is impossible due to their respective "statuses" -Dany eventually ditches him because she has to do her duty "for the realm" and last but not least, -Dany is probably unknowingly pregnant with Daario's child when she is carried off by a dragon.
What I'd like to explore using this rollback parallel is the idea that Lyanna was pregnant with her "middle lover's" baby when she was abducted, and see where that goes. I'm getting "child of three" vibes here, and am also reminded of this: One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor's Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city's stranger gods. "That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do.
I think we're getting hints in Dany - and Lyanna's - stories of what the "middle head" does...the bridge between the dying (girl) and the reborn (soul) is the child in the middle.
Anyway, allow me to hurl some crackpot atcha.
Without digressing into parentage, let's assume for the sake of discussion that Lyanna was pregnant with the "middle head". Let's also assume that she had been keeping time at court like I suspect. (Yes, I realize that 80% of my tinfoil dissolves like Sam's Popsicle if this turns out not to be true.)
If we follow the Dany parallel, and factor Brandon into the equation as the Viserys representative, it's *possible* that there was an attempt at a brokered deal between Rhaegar and Brandon - and unlike Dany's scenario, someone was very interested in the baby. Lyanna was pregnant, and Rhaegar knew about it. How, you ask? Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. ... And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.
Rhaegar learned of Lyanna's pregnancy from Ashara/whispering of maids, just like Cat learned of Ashara via whisperings of Winterfell staff. There's another echo elsewhere: "She's been sick," Lady Tanda said. If a babe can be termed a sickness, Sansa thought. It was common gossip that Lollys was with child.
Castles keep no secrets, indeed! To continue along the Lollys angle, Shae also told Tyrion about Lollys' pregnancy – Shae of course being Tyrion's side pice disguised as maid, something that I expect of Ashara's position at court as well. Lollys was gang-raped "half a hundred times" during the attack on the royal procession at King's Landing; no one knew who father was. Going back to pre-Rebellion days, do we have an example of a similar attack on a royal procession?
Why yes, yes we do! Elia Martell and her caravan, traveling through the Kingswood. If Lyanna had fallen in with the KwB at the time... or shoot, even if it's a direct parallel and Lyanna is also part of Elia's caravan...regardless of circumstance, I think this may be the conception point of Lyanna's child. (And yes, I'm still leaning toward Smiley as the culprit.)
So Lya falls pregnant, and the other servants at the castle know it. Side note: I may have to start a separate thread on the Lollys/Lyanna comparisons, because OH MY GOD. Not just the pregnancy part, but the eventual "use" of Lady Falyse, the pregnant daughter's OLDER SISTER, in Qyburn's "experiments", because OH MY GOD.
Before I go on, though, I would like to point out a timeline thing:
If Lyanna became pregnant sometime around the attack on Elia's caravan, my highly biased and unofficial timeline places this around the end of Q1 /beginning Q2 281 - Rhaegar and Elia wed in 280, and Princess Rhaenys was also born in 280, so it seems fair to say that the wedding occurred near the first of the year and the birth toward the end of year; Elia was then bedridden/in recovery for half a year afterward. As Gerold Hightower was still nursing the hand injury that he sustained during the attack on Elia's caravan, and that hand injury prevented him from both pursuing the KwB and participating in the Tourney of Harrenhal, it logically follows that the attack on the caravan occurred AFTER Elia's recovery from Rhaenys' birth...so late Q1early Q2-ish the following year.
A conception in Q1 (Jan-March) results in a birth in Q4 (Oct-Dec) of the same year. A conception in early Q2 (April-June) results in a birth in Q1 (Jan-March) the following year. I'll just throw this out there: The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.
As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.
In other words, a child of Lyanna's conceived in the first three months of 281 - and possibly still concealable at the time of the tourney - would be born right around the same time as Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon. A child of Lyanna's conceived in months 3-6 of 281 would be born right around the time Rhaegar "fell upon" her in the Riverlands.
to be cont.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 10, 2017 21:23:13 GMT
In other words, a child of Lyanna's conceived in the first three months of 281 - and possibly still concealable at the time of the tourney - would be born right around the same time as Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon. A child of Lyanna's conceived in months 3-6 of 281 would be born right around the time Rhaegar "fell upon" her in the Riverlands.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 11, 2017 2:29:33 GMT
Interesting, so you think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and her recently born child? Lyanna's pregnancy had to be hidden from Robert for obvious reasons. Did Eddard know of her pregnancy?
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 11, 2017 2:45:50 GMT
And both freyfamilyreunion and I were pondering in the FD thread whether or not the current batch of Daynes come from a Targaryen/Blackwood ancestor. Well I specifically think one of Aegon's sisters married back into the Dayne family (probably the one that tried to slip him the love potion). You keep magical bloodlines alive by marrying the first cousin back into the main line (see the Stark family tree).
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 11, 2017 2:56:53 GMT
Yeesh. Started typing out the next part, but it got really disjointed and off track - need to condense a few things before I post.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 11, 2017 3:05:31 GMT
Interesting, so you think that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and her recently born child? Lyanna's pregnancy had to be hidden from Robert for obvious reasons. Did Eddard know of her pregnancy? Something along those lines. I'm playing with a couple of scenarios - one in which her live child is taken, and another in which her child is murdered. Going to mess with it some more, see what fits. Not sure Ned knew about it (at the time), but I'm certain Brandon did. Well I specifically think one of Aegon's sisters married back into the Dayne family (probably the one that tried to slip him the love potion). Yep, same. And any "black" magic capabilities in the Targaryen line were introduced by the First Men families of the Daynes and Blackwoods.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 11, 2017 15:22:02 GMT
I would like to point out a timeline thing: Had a few other thoughts, but in the meantime I was trying to find an old timeline where I worked out that Lyanna was missing - from the time of her "kidnapping" to her "death at the ToJ" for approx 15 months. Someone else in the RLJ threads over on W figured 14-15 months as well. This was to argue AGAINST the possibility that Lyanna has two pregnancies, but no one took into account that Lyanna could have already been pregnant.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 11, 2017 16:17:14 GMT
Exactly. I'm down with the 14-15 month window as well, and although it doesn't work for 2 full pregnancies front to back, it does work for one "half" one followed by a full one.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 11, 2017 21:57:09 GMT
I would like to point out a timeline thing: Had a few other thoughts, but in the meantime I was trying to find an old timeline where I worked out that Lyanna was missing - from the time of her "kidnapping" to her "death at the ToJ" for approx 15 months. Someone else in the RLJ threads over on W figured 14-15 months as well. This was to argue AGAINST the possibility that Lyanna has two pregnancies, but no one took into account that Lyanna could have already been pregnant. And remember what Harwin (Hullin? I get those two mixed up) told Arya. The rumor going around Winterfell was that Ned and Ashara's affair happened during the Harrenhal tourney. Combine that with the rumor that Ashara was Ned's mother, and it appears that the servants in Winterfell think that Jon may have been conceived during the Harrenhal tourney. In other words Cat's assumption that Ned fathered Jon after their marriage does not seem to be the assumption of the other people in Winterfell.
And oddly enough it makes sense for Cat to want Jon to have been conceived after her marriage to Ned and not before, because it is in her best interest for her son to be the eldest child in case there is an issue with succession.
If Jon was conceived well before Robb, then, Luwin would undoubtedly have figured this out. Luwin is the guy who kept telling Jon that bastards grow up faster than other children. Luwin also came to Winterfell with Cat, so we know where his loyalties probably lie. (Interestingly enough it is Luwin who first suggests to Eddard about having Jon join the Night's Watch.)
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Post by Melifeather on Feb 8, 2018 11:32:27 GMT
Jon most definitely is an Otherbaby. His birth is the mirrored inversion to Stannis's shadowbaby. The fisherman's daughter story is the mirrored inversion of Davos and Melisandre. Even Davos' trip to White Harbor is the mirrored inversion to when Ned travelled there on his way to call his banners. So who is Wylla? She would have to be a priestess or "vessel" of the old gods, just like Melisandre is a priestess of Rh'llor. Was Wylla an ice priestess or was she Lyanna after all - the dead mother direwolf who's pup was born with the dead? Where did the birth take place? Melidandre gave birth inside Storm's End. Where was this icey-white-shadowbaby born? The only thing that seems clear to me is that magic was involved and that it happened during Ned's return trip to Winterfell.
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