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Post by Melifeather on Sept 16, 2017 14:53:38 GMT
The boy was cursed and caned, slapped and starved. One man had him sleep in his chainmail to make him more martial. Another dressed him in his mother's clothing and paraded him through the bailey to shame him into valor. He only grew fatter and more frightened, Sam took comfort from his abuse in food. That is why he got fat. - no purpose in pointing this out. Just an observation.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 15:25:28 GMT
While I love this theory, I stumbled across something on the Wikipedia that made me pause a bit as to Sam's origin. As you know, I firmly believe that the tower of joy, was an attempt for Rhaegar to bring about the one dragon. That his son, Aegon, was one of the sacrifices, and that he believed that Aegon would be reborn, and his spirit/soul/consciousness would be reborn in the hatched dragon.
I also think that Rhaegar probably believed that he needed children with First Man kingsblood, to fuel the ritual. So he probably needed children with bloodlines of House Duran, House Gardner, House Lannister, House Stark, maybe House Arryn, ect. Ect.
Obviously Jon would fit the bill for House Stark. Gendry could probably fit the bill for House Duran. Brienne, I'm not sure about, I always kind of had her pegged as possibly being a source of House Gardner kingsblood, because of her facial similarities to the Redwyne twins, but I'm very much on the fence about that.
If Sam is in reality, Aegon, than it is easy to see how he fits in the picture. But something I came across in the Wiki about Samwise Gangee (Samwell's obvious inspiration) made me question myself a bit. Apparently, after the events of Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gangee started a family, but their surnames changed to Gardner, so Samwise apparently started House Gardner in the Lord of the Rings. And what's more, there is another Hobbit family member closely related to Samwise who's surname is Greenhand. So if Samwise is Samwell's inspiration, is GRRM hinting that Samwell is the return of the Gardner bloodlines, through specific interbreeding?
If so, my guess is that Samwell is probably the son of Randyll Tarly's wife, Melessa Florent (or possibly the son of a sister of Melessa) , but Randyll Tarly is probably not his father.
Now we don't go far enough back with House Rowan or House Oakheart to know what other bloodlines they have intermingled with. But we know that Mace Tyrell has bloodlines from House Redwyne through his mother, and according to the Worldbook at least House Redwyne is one of those Houses that trace their lineage back to the Gardner Kings. There is also a history of obesity in Mace Tyrell's household. Mace himself is getting fat (and is also described as often getting red faced, much like Sam). Mace has an uncle, Garth the Gross who is apparently obese. And then there is the history of nicknames in House Tyrell. We have Garlan the Gallant, the second son of Mace Tyrell. Now compare that to Sam the Slayer.
So my thought is, that it is possible that Mace Tyrell may be Sam's father. And perhaps Randyll Tarly is suspicious of this, hence his disdain for Samwell. Another possibility is that Sam's mother is Melessa's sister, Rhea, who was later married to Lord Hightower as his fourth wife. This possibility becomes stronger, if we believe that Mace may have been part of the tower of joy conspiracy. After all we know that Mace was invited by Rhaegar to the Harrenhal tourney. If the purpose of the Harrenhal tourney was to further Rhaegar's plans at the tower of joy, the invitees may have been gathered for a particular purpose. They needed certain bloodlines to further their plan. So perhaps Mace was brought into the fold, and they needed his bloodlines combined with a Florent girl. So Mace impregnates unmarried Rhea, and her son is to be sacrificed at the tower of joy. When that failed to happen, Melessa raises the child as hers. Like Eddard, Randyll is forced to pretend the child is his, but unlike Eddard, he can't claim the child is a bastard. So ultimately he forces Sam into the Night's Watch.
I haven't completely worked out the details but I think this scenario is a possibility.
Basically I'm now torn between these two scenarios. Either Sam is the Prince that Was Promised, or Sam is the offshoot of the Gardner bloodlines brought back through him. If the latter is true, though I still think that Rhaegar's son and the Prince that Was Promised, Aegon is still around. And the only two possibilities based on the ages would be Young Griff, but probably too obvious, and the more intriguing possibility, Quentyn Martell.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 17, 2017 16:05:23 GMT
If the purpose of the Harrenhal tourney was to further Rhaegar's plans at the tower of joy, the invitees may have been gathered for a particular purpose. They needed certain bloodlines to further their plan. I'm really intrigued by the possibility of needing each bloodline for Rhaegar's planned ritual, especially this. If so, my guess is that Samwell is probably the son of Randyll Tarly's wife, Melessa Florent (or possibly the son of a sister of Melessa) , but Randyll Tarly is probably not his father. At one point I had considered that the Tarlys allowed "First Night" and that Melessa was impregnated by either King Aerys or the liege lord Mace Tyrell. It's a possibility I've kept in the back of my mind. Apparently, after the events of Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gangee started a family, but their surnames changed to Gardner, so Samwise apparently started House Gardner in the Lord of the Rings. And what's more, there is another Hobbit family member closely related to Samwise who's surname is Greenhand. So if Samwise is Samwell's inspiration, is GRRM hinting that Samwell is the return of the Gardner bloodlines, through specific interbreeding? This also reminds me of GRRMs quote about being a gardener and not an architect. A great observation here. I don't quite see an obsession in the books on the importance of this bloodline in particular but taken as part of a grand scheme - a collection of bloodlines - it does make sense. Like Eddard, Randyll is forced to pretend the child is his, but unlike Eddard, he can't claim the child is a bastard. So ultimately he forces Sam into the Night's Watch. I haven't completely worked out the details but I think this scenario is a possibility. Basically I'm now torn between these two scenarios. Either Sam is the Prince that Was Promised, or Sam is the offshoot of the Gardner bloodlines brought back through him. If the latter is true, though I still think that Rhaegar's son and the Prince that Was Promised, Aegon is still around. And the only two possibilities based on the ages would be Young Griff, but probably too obvious, and the more intriguing possibility, Quentyn Martell. Aegon VI lives, I agree entirely. And Sam's father is not Randyll - obviously I believe that lol. Curiously, also thinking of all the other 14ish year olds (as of the start of GoT) in the books, and how the bloodlines might add up for Rhaegar's bloodmagic soup - presuming they needed infants? Jon, Dany, Sam, Margaery, Aegon, Robb, many more... ETA Meera,
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 17:08:21 GMT
If the purpose of the Harrenhal tourney was to further Rhaegar's plans at the tower of joy, the invitees may have been gathered for a particular purpose. They needed certain bloodlines to further their plan. I'm really intrigued by the possibility of needing each bloodline for Rhaegar's planned ritual, especially this. If so, my guess is that Samwell is probably the son of Randyll Tarly's wife, Melessa Florent (or possibly the son of a sister of Melessa) , but Randyll Tarly is probably not his father. At one point I had considered that the Tarlys allowed "First Night" and that Melessa was impregnated by either King Aerys or the liege lord Mace Tyrell. It's a possibility I've kept in the back of my mind. Apparently, after the events of Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gangee started a family, but their surnames changed to Gardner, so Samwise apparently started House Gardner in the Lord of the Rings. And what's more, there is another Hobbit family member closely related to Samwise who's surname is Greenhand. So if Samwise is Samwell's inspiration, is GRRM hinting that Samwell is the return of the Gardner bloodlines, through specific interbreeding? This also reminds me of GRRMs quote about being a gardener and not an architect. A great observation here. I don't quite see an obsession in the books on the importance of this bloodline in particular but taken as part of a grand scheme - a collection of bloodlines - it does make sense. Like Eddard, Randyll is forced to pretend the child is his, but unlike Eddard, he can't claim the child is a bastard. So ultimately he forces Sam into the Night's Watch. I haven't completely worked out the details but I think this scenario is a possibility. Basically I'm now torn between these two scenarios. Either Sam is the Prince that Was Promised, or Sam is the offshoot of the Gardner bloodlines brought back through him. If the latter is true, though I still think that Rhaegar's son and the Prince that Was Promised, Aegon is still around. And the only two possibilities based on the ages would be Young Griff, but probably too obvious, and the more intriguing possibility, Quentyn Martell. Aegon VI lives, I agree entirely. And Sam's father is not Randyll - obviously I believe that lol. Curiously, also thinking of all the other 14ish year olds (as of the start of GoT) in the books, and how the bloodlines might add up for Rhaegar's bloodmagic soup - presuming they needed infants? Jon, Dany, Sam, Margaery, Aegon, Robb, many more... ETA Meera, I'm starting to narrow it down to seven children who may have been involved or were intended on being involved with the tower of joy: 1. Jon Snow, representing the Kings of Winter 2. Samwell Tarly representing either the Prince that was Promised or in the alternative the Gardner Kings. 3. Meera Reed: representing the Marsh Kings and the Mudd Kings from the riverland, especially if Howland Reed's mother is Jenny of Oldstones. If her mother is Lyanna than perhaps she also represents the bloodlines from House Stark as well. 4. Gendry: representing the Storm King bloodlines and possibly the Hightower bloodlines if his blond haired mother is Jorah's ex wife. 5. Brienne. This one is the head scratcher. Perhaps Lannister and/or Arryn? I think that we'll find that there is a mystery to he origin. Duncan the Tall may be an ancestor as well. 6. Danaerys: representing the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror. I think her mother may be Ashara Dayne, and there may be some Targaryen offshoots who intermarried into House Dayne. 7. Finally, Quentyn Martell as possibly the Prince that was Promised if the role hasn't been taken by Sam. I do think that it's significant that the Tyrells were at the Harrenhal tourney along with the Starks. This makes me think that these were the two primary bloodlines that Rhaegar was interested in. Those of House Gardner and House Stark.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 17, 2017 17:29:58 GMT
At bday party so can't respond at length, but what if he needed the holy number 7? 7 babies 7 kingdoms---how many"magic ' bloodlines are there?
Spitballing
Will add thoughts on Aegon later
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Sept 17, 2017 17:30:32 GMT
Oops, ninja'd
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 17, 2017 17:47:06 GMT
I'm starting to narrow it down to seven children who may have been involved or were intended on being involved with the tower of joy: Doing a quick reread of Brienne's AFFC chapter about the eggs for the Tarly wedding, which I already mentioned made me suspicious of the Tarlys involvement with "Aegs" but it seems like there may be deeper clues there on this topic. It clearly has several layers of meaning beyond being a "boring Brienne travelogue."
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 17:56:24 GMT
I'm starting to narrow it down to seven children who may have been involved or were intended on being involved with the tower of joy: Doing a quick reread of Brienne's AFFC chapter about the eggs for the Tarly wedding, which I already mentioned made me suspicious of the Tarlys involvement with "Aegs" but it seems like there may be deeper clues there on this topic. It clearly has several layers of meaning beyond being a "boring Brienne travelogue." The apparent uselessness of Brienne's chapters in AFFC and Quentyn's in ADWD makes me think that there has to be something we don't know about these two characters.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Sept 17, 2017 18:07:16 GMT
5. Brienne. This one is the head scratcher. Perhaps Lannister and/or Arryn? I think that we'll find that there is a mystery to he origin. Duncan the Tall may be an ancestor as well. Quick nod towards the OP - re: Dunc & Egg, and Brienne (Dunc) saving the eggs (Aeg). 7. Finally, Quentyn Martell as possibly the Prince that was Promised if the role hasn't been taken by Sam. Quentyn could bring Nymeria's bloodline, and possibly Dayne if Dany's story plays out differently.
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 17, 2017 18:42:50 GMT
Like Eddard, Randyll is forced to pretend the child is his, but unlike Eddard, he can't claim the child is a bastard. So ultimately he forces Sam into the Night's Watch. WOW! This is fabulous! Great investigative work and well reasoned! The baby swap inversion supports your observation that Randyl may have been forced to raise Sam as his just as Ned decided to raise Jon as his. Forced and willingly being inversions here. Maybe we can digest this information to see if new insight can be gained into the identity of Jon's father by figuring out an inversion to Mace Tyrell? Wouldn't it be shocking to have, for instance, a Bolton as Jon's father? All that "hunting the maids through the woods" and all that. At one point I had considered that the Tarlys allowed "First Night" and that Melessa was impregnated by either King Aerys or the liege lord Mace Tyrell. It's a possibility I've kept in the back of my mind. And the Boltons were still practicing or at the very least disliked having to give up "first night"...I think a case could be made that Roose took Lyanna's maidenhead...firstly because they think Winterfell should be theirs and that they are the rightful Lords, and secondly because, in at least my mind, this could work. I'm starting to narrow it down to seven children who may have been involved or were intended on being involved with the tower of joy: 1. Jon Snow, representing the Kings of Winter 2. Samwell Tarly representing either the Prince that was Promised or in the alternative the Gardner Kings. 3. Meera Reed: representing the Marsh Kings and the Mudd Kings from the riverland, especially if Howland Reed's mother is Jenny of Oldstones. If her mother is Lyanna than perhaps she also represents the bloodlines from House Stark as well. 4. Gendry: representing the Storm King bloodlines and possibly the Hightower bloodlines if his blond haired mother is Jorah's ex wife. 5. Brienne. This one is the head scratcher. Perhaps Lannister and/or Arryn? I think that we'll find that there is a mystery to he origin. Duncan the Tall may be an ancestor as well. 6. Danaerys: representing the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror. I think her mother may be Ashara Dayne, and there may be some Targaryen offshoots who intermarried into House Dayne. 7. Finally, Quentyn Martell as possibly the Prince that was Promised if the role hasn't been taken by Sam. I do think that it's significant that the Tyrells were at the Harrenhal tourney along with the Starks. This makes me think that these were the two primary bloodlines that Rhaegar was interested in. Those of House Gardner and House Stark. I am really liking this theory as it would help explain Ned's assertion that they went to war to end the killing of children.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 18:57:49 GMT
Apparently, after the events of Lord of the Rings, Samwise Gangee started a family, but their surnames changed to Gardner, so Samwise apparently started House Gardner in the Lord of the Rings. And what's more, there is another Hobbit family member closely related to Samwise who's surname is Greenhand. So if Samwise is Samwell's inspiration, is GRRM hinting that Samwell is the return of the Gardner bloodlines, through specific interbreeding? This also reminds me of GRRMs quote about being a gardener and not an architect. A great observation here. I don't quite see an obsession in the books on the importance of this bloodline in particular but taken as part of a grand scheme - a collection of bloodlines - it does make sense. The obsession over the Gardner kings bloodlines mainly comes from Melisandre. The Florents make a claim that they are the true inheritors of the Gardner King Bloodline. And notice that Melisandre is always hellbent on burning a Florent. So Melisandre burned one Florent and was prepared to burn another. And unfortunately for Shireen she possesses the same bloodlines as Edric Storm, half Florent half Baratheon. Now perhaps Rhaegar was reading the same ancient prophecies as Melisandre and came to the same conclusion about king's blood.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 19:09:53 GMT
Like Eddard, Randyll is forced to pretend the child is his, but unlike Eddard, he can't claim the child is a bastard. So ultimately he forces Sam into the Night's Watch. WOW! This is fabulous! Great investigative work and well reasoned! The baby swap inversion supports your observation that Randyl may have been forced to raise Sam as his just as Ned decided to raise Jon as his. Forced and willingly being inversions here. Maybe we can digest this information to see if new insight can be gained into the identity of Jon's father by figuring out an inversion to Mace Tyrell? Wouldn't it be shocking to have, for instance, a Bolton as Jon's father? All that "hunting the maids through the woods" and all that. At one point I had considered that the Tarlys allowed "First Night" and that Melessa was impregnated by either King Aerys or the liege lord Mace Tyrell. It's a possibility I've kept in the back of my mind. And the Boltons were still practicing or at the very least disliked having to give up "first night"...I think a case could be made that Roose took Lyanna's maidenhead...firstly because they think Winterfell should be theirs and that they are the rightful Lords, and secondly because, in at least my mind, this could work. I'm starting to narrow it down to seven children who may have been involved or were intended on being involved with the tower of joy: 1. Jon Snow, representing the Kings of Winter 2. Samwell Tarly representing either the Prince that was Promised or in the alternative the Gardner Kings. 3. Meera Reed: representing the Marsh Kings and the Mudd Kings from the riverland, especially if Howland Reed's mother is Jenny of Oldstones. If her mother is Lyanna than perhaps she also represents the bloodlines from House Stark as well. 4. Gendry: representing the Storm King bloodlines and possibly the Hightower bloodlines if his blond haired mother is Jorah's ex wife. 5. Brienne. This one is the head scratcher. Perhaps Lannister and/or Arryn? I think that we'll find that there is a mystery to he origin. Duncan the Tall may be an ancestor as well. 6. Danaerys: representing the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror. I think her mother may be Ashara Dayne, and there may be some Targaryen offshoots who intermarried into House Dayne. 7. Finally, Quentyn Martell as possibly the Prince that was Promised if the role hasn't been taken by Sam. I do think that it's significant that the Tyrells were at the Harrenhal tourney along with the Starks. This makes me think that these were the two primary bloodlines that Rhaegar was interested in. Those of House Gardner and House Stark. I am really liking this theory as it would help explain Ned's assertion that they went to war to end the killing of children. There are a number of both parallels and inversions between the Gardner Kings and the Stark Kings. The Starks represent Winter while the Gardners represent Summer. Unlike the coastal cities of Casterly Rock and Storm's End, both Highgarden and Winterfell sit in the middle of their realm, and apparently both sit on some type of hill. The Gardners had multiple weirwoods in their Godswood while the Starks had one. The Gardner kings knelt to the Andals and were burnt by the Targaryens, while the Starks threw the Andals back into the sea and knelt to the Targaryens. Jon Snow is slender, while Sam is fat, heh. Jon Snow is loved by his foster father, but his foster father may very well have stripped him of the House name if indeed Jon's father was Brandon. Sam was hated by his foster father yet his foster father gave Same the Tarly name. ETA: I think it's also important to note that both the Gardner Kings and the Stark Kings date back to the original First Men kings of Westeros. The only family that comes close are the Storm Kings of House Durran. The Lannisters stole Casterly Rock from the Casterlies, and the Arryns date back to the Andal invasion and not the First Men. And the Seastone chair may date back to a civilization that predates the First Men arrival on the Iron Islands. And yes, Ned's statement that they went to war with the Targaryens to stop the killing of children never really made much sense. After all the only children being killed that we knew about were Elia's children by the Lannisters. I'll try to go into more detail about the tower of joy and the sacrifice of children in SPND's thread on Aerys and Rhaegar as serial killers.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Sept 17, 2017 19:18:44 GMT
Oh shit, something else completely just occurred to me. Look at the three main King's blood houses: Durran, Stark, Gardner. The Tyrells, Baratheons, and Starks were all invited to the party. While Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown of roses, his buddies are getting Robert extremely intoxicated. Now let's assume that the Targaryens are playing matchmaker. They hook the Tyrells up with the Florents to rejoin House Gardner's bloodlines, then perhaps Rhaegar comes to the realization of the relationship between Lyanna and Brandon and marks them with the circle of blue flowers, which also happens to be one of the symbols of House Florent. And they get Robert drunk and probably get someone to have sex with him. Could it be Ashara??? Could it be the Hightower girl that Jorah ended up marrying?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 17, 2017 19:59:02 GMT
When I brought up the Boltons I was thinking of the reversal of the major timeline of events and how LC Jon Snow and Ramsay legitimized Lord Bolton of Winterfell were a reversal of the Nights King and the Lord of Winterfell of historical times. Old Nan said some say the Nights King was a Bolton, but he was a Stark and brother to the Lord of Winterfell. I thought Jon and Ramsay were brothers by way of bastardy and the last name "Snow", but maybe they really are both Bolton bastards?
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Post by Melifeather on Sept 17, 2017 20:08:54 GMT
Oh shit, something else completely just occurred to me. Look at the three main King's blood houses: Durran, Stark, Gardner. The Tyrells, Baratheons, and Starks were all invited to the party. While Rhaegar gives Lyanna the crown of roses, his buddies are getting Robert extremely intoxicated. Now let's assume that the Targaryens are playing matchmaker. They hook the Tyrells up with the Florents to rejoin House Gardner's bloodlines, then perhaps Rhaegar comes to the realization of the relationship between Lyanna and Brandon and marks them with the circle of blue flowers, which also happens to be one of the symbols of House Florent. And they get Robert drunk and probably get someone to have sex with him. Could it be Ashara??? Could it be the Hightower girl that Jorah ended up marrying? All of your ideas here make the Tourney of Harrenhal much, much more than winning alliances to Rhaegar's cause to coup his father. There is an inversion chapter that needs to be scrutinized to see if we can gain additional insight into Jorah and this Hightower girl. It's The Wayward Bride - ADWD chapter 26. I haven't completed my analysis, but to me Asha and her lover, smooth faced Qarl the Maid seems to parallel Rhaella and hairy Jorah Mormont. I was wondering if Jorah's "wife" was actually a cover story for an affair with Queen Rhaella, but I haven't been able to support that theory as of yet. However there are the flashes of memory that Dany has that seem like descriptions of the Mormont's home on Bear Island, and the "poachers" that he sold to slavers could have been Dany, Viserys, and Rhaella.
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