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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Apr 12, 2016 18:32:16 GMT
I put this theory in the Westeros forum, and it's kind of growing on me, the more I think about it. Let me know what you think:
Tyrion is the bastard son of Oberyn, who in turn is the bastard son of Aerys, making Tyrion the manticore.
I've always found GRRM's prevelant use of the manticore imagery fairly odd. It's a Persian mythological creature, supposedly with the body of a lion, the head of a man, the tail of a scorpion or a dragon, and the wings of a bat. It also is known to shoot barbs from it's tail as if they were arrows (or crossbow bolts). It falls into the class of mythical creatures called a chimera (a conglomeration of various creatures). In some literature it has been considered to be associated with the Sphinx, since both possessed the body of a lion and a human face. One of the gargoyles that Davos views at Dragonstone ("sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there") is a manticore. In the series, Amory Lorch, the one who kills Rhaegar's daughter bears the manticore sigil, and a "manticore" is what nearly stings Daenaerys when the sorrowful man gives her decorative box containing the creature.
I strongly believe that Tyrion is going to be one of the characters who makes up The Prince that was Promised role. To fill the role, Tyrion needs to be descended from Aerys and/or Rahella. I think GRRM is being too overt (especially in the world book) that Aerys may have forced himself on Joanna, so I tend to doubt that Aerys is Tyrion's father. But it occurred to me, that Aerys could be Tyrion's grandfather.
Let's start with Oberyn and whether or not he could be the child of Aerys. 1. Doran notes that after he was born, his mother had many miscarriages until later in life when she gives birth to Elia and then shortly thereafter Oberyn. 2. Oberyn and Elia are roughly of age with Rhaegar's, which means they were born shortly after Aerys and Rahella married. Their mother was one of Rahella's ladies in waiting along with Joanna. 3. The world book (yes, I know) in speaking of Aerys' interest in Joanna, mentions that Rahella had complained of Aerys having been turning her ladies into his whores. If in fact Joanna was not one of Aerys' "whores" then I wonder if perhaps Doran's mother was. 4. Shortly after Doran's mother would have gone to King's Landing to become one of Rahella's ladies in waiting she gives birth to two children after years of previous miscarriages. 5. Aerys sends Lord Baratheon on a mission to Essos to find a suitable bride for Rhaegar. He turns down Cersei as a suitable mate. Yet he agrees to marry Rhaegar to sickly Elia? It doesn't make much sense, unless of course Aerys knows that the Princess of Dorne's daughter is in fact his child. Then all of a sudden, Elia becomes a suitable bride for Rhaegar. 6. When Oberyn tells Tyrion of his trip to Casterly Rock, he tells Tyrion that he went with his mother, his sister, and his mother's "consort". I wonder if perhaps that Oberyn knows that his mother's husband was not his father, which is why he refers to him as her "consort"? 7. Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers.
Now I'm much more convinced of the first part of my theory then I am of the second part. I think Oberyn would have had the opportunity to have been in contact with Joanna at the time of Tyrion's birth. Oberyn's mother and Joanna were very close. Tyrion was born roughly 9 months after a major tournament in King's Landing which could have very well brought the Martells and Lannisters back in contact with each other. Now Oberyn would have been young, probably 14 years of age. But of course, Oberyn was caught at the age of 16 with Lord Yronwood's paramour, so Obeyn was probably sexually active at an early age. This may also explain Tyrion's black hair in his beard, and his "evil" black eye. He inherited these "chimera" traits from his father Oberyn.It may also explain why Oberyn and Elia took such a strong interest in seeing Tyrion when they travelled to King's Landing Casterly Rock and perhaps even helps explain why Oberyn championed Tyrion. Now, I know he had other motives for both actions, but Martin often seems to give his characters secondary ulterior motives, hidden by the more obvious motives in the texts. It also gives some additional resonance to Oberyn telling Tyrion that his father won't live forever right before he agrees to champion Tyrion against the Mountain. Once again, I understand that Oberyn very well could have been responsible for poisoning Tywin, but once again double meanings are not uncommon in this series.
Now why does this make Tyrion the manticore? Well we have a creature with the body of a lion (obvious) and the tail of a dragon or a scorpion. If Oberyn is half a dragon then it explains the dragon imagery. I think Oberyn also supplies the scorpion imagery. Oberyn tells Tyrion the story of the Martell lord killed by a canopy full of scorpions, he gives Joffrey a red gold Scorpion scarab, he was also the ward of Lord Qorgyle, whose sigil is the scorpion. Finally he even fights like a scorpion, jabbing the Mountain with his poisoned spear fighting like a scorpion would fight with his poisoned tail.
The Manticore has also been linked to the Sphinx, both being middle eastern creatures with the body of a lion and the head of a man. Tyrion has obvious Sphinx imagery. The manticore is also a type of Chimera, and Tyrion is gentically a "chimera" possessing hair of different color and two eyes of different color. The manticore also was reputed to fire barbs from his tail, and of course Tyrion kills his father with a type of barb, a crossbow bolt.
If the imagery is correct, then Tyrion is a type of poisoned gift, much like the gift of the manticore that the sorrowful man gives to Danaerys. Note after Illyrio gives Tyrion to Duck and Haldon, to bring to Young Griff, he tells them to tell Young Griff how he is "sorry" for not being able to make Young Griff's wedding. |
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on Apr 12, 2016 18:41:00 GMT
Part 2: another poster brought up the interesting possibility of Tyrion being a genetic chimera. Which could have happened if Joanna had been impregnated by both Tywin, and then later another (his/her theory was it could have been Aerys as the other father) and two eggs would have been fertilized by two different fathers. One embryo than absorbs the other and Tyrion is born with two different sets of genes. It occurred to me that the genetic chimera theory fit into my theory better than Aerys being Tyrion's father:
I really like your idea of Tyrion being a genetic chimera. And it jives with Tywin's line about not being able to prove Tyrion isn't his. Which means, at least in my mind, that Tywin knew he had intercourse with Joanna around the time of Tyrion's conception. But I still don't think Aerys would have been the (other ) father.
Tyrion would have been conceived around 272. And while Aerys hadn't hit Howard Hughes bat-shit crazy mode yet, he was becoming a pretty big asshole at the time. The Worldbook even makes mention that at the Casterly Rock tourney, Aerys even humiliates Joanna by publically asking her if her breasts started sagging after she gave birth to her twins. This would probably have been the tourney where Aerys would have been in a position to have impregnated Joanna. So he's not exactly wooing her is he? In fact it seems unlikely that she would have secretly run off with him at this point after such a public humiliation.
The other problem is Tyrion's genetic chimeric (word?) traits. Aerys is known to have the Targaryen gold and silver hair and purple eyes. The Lannisters Joann and Tywin both have blond hair and green eyes. Yet Tyrion has a beard of black and blond hair and a green and black eye. So where does the black hair and black eye come from? My humble suggestion is that it came from Oberyn, who snaked his way into Joanna's bedchamber perhaps at the time of the Casterly Rock tourney.
Which brings me to another one of Dragonstone's gargoyles, the basilisk. This is a creature who can kill with a glance. Which jives with Tyrion giving Oberyn the evil eye when they first meet up, and Oberyn later dies "defending" Tyrion. A basilisk is a mythical creature born when a cockerel (male chicken) is tricked into hatching the egg of a snake. (see the symbolsm? Tywin is tricked into raising the son of Oberyn, the red viper).
Finally, playing off your theory a bit, remember Oberyn asking Tyrion where he and his paramour could find a blond prostitute to share? Oberyn remarks that they never shared a blond before. In this theory Oberyn and Tywin would have shared their own blond, Joanna.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 13, 2016 17:10:42 GMT
6. When Oberyn tells Tyrion of his trip to Casterly Rock, he tells Tyrion that he went with his mother, his sister, and his mother's "consort". I'd thought, when I'd originally read she was going around the 7K with a consort, that the marriage between them was long broken. We have the example of Doran and his wife, she gave him 3 kids, then buggered off. It's as if Doran is just repeating his parent's marriage. You know, it's a marriage by arrangement, not a love match, so after the lady gives her husband an heir, she's freer to find her own lover. So if this is the case, it further strengthens your argument. The marriage between Doran, Elia and Oberyn's parents was long over by the time they went on their little tour of the 7K. 7. Finally, Oberyn's Targaryen parentage may explain his rounding up of his "Sand Snakes". He is seeking out other mates with Targaryen heritage and gathering their children, perhaps as potential dragon riders or dragon hatchers. Another side note here. This could work for you in a number of ways. First, Oberyn could be gathering his daughters around him simply for love, or to have a small army at his call. Kind of like the retainers kings and lords have. Next, Sarella goes to Oldtown, supposedly to play a game. But remember, Oberyn earned several maester's links in Oldtown before he left for greener pastures. What if one of the things Alleras is looking for is either dragons eggs, or how to hatch dragons eggs? Also recall that Alleras (if it really is Sarella, and I think she must be) is proficient with the Summer Islander's bow, which is short and curved, nearly like a crossbow. And finally, Tyene has the colouring of her mother, the Septa, she's blonde and blue-eyed. So this proves that Oberyn can have children with blonde hair and light coloured eyes. This may also explain Tyrion's black hair in his beard, and his "evil" black eye. He inherited these "chimera" traits from his father Oberyn. This is the strongest evidence you've got, in terms of inherited traits. However, in Thrones, the black hair is strongly linked to the Baratheons, so that's a bit of a fly in the ointment as far as the integrity of the in-universe plot. Regardless, Tyrion needs to have gotten the black from someone. It seems unlikely that a marriage between cousins with blonde and green-eyed traits would chuck out a kid with black hair and eye. Tyrion and Oberyn also share some traits not made explicit in the books. For Oberyn to have earned several maesters links at a young age means he's got a keen mind. Tyrion has the keenest mind of all the characters, he's known for it. Oberyn also has a sharp tongue, he doesn't shy away from saying exactly what he thinks. That sharp tongue gets him into trouble in the end. Because he won't stop talking, the Mountain gets infuriated by it, giving him the impetus to kill Oberyn when he's almost dead himself. Tyrion has a sharp tongue that is always getting him into trouble. And finally, Oberyn is known for his poisons. Tyrion goes through all of the poisons and potions that Maester Pycelle has in his rooms and Tyrion takes them. Now I can't remember if it was in the books or on the show, but doesn't Tyrion slip Cersei a sleeping draught in one of her cups? As to the physical side, Oberyn (like Henry VIII) seems to be one of those men not capable of fathering viable male offspring. If they do manage to have a woman bring a male to term, they are usually plagued with problems from the start. Now this is not very scientific, but say Oberyn and Joanna did manage to have a male, that male could end up being weak and incapable of growing to maturity, or deformed. That would kind of explain Tyrion's dwarfism. And I love the idea of Tyrion being a medical chimera. There's already evidence of twins running in the Lannister family, so it is entirely plausible for Tywin to've absorbed his twin. I mean, come now, even his name! Tywin is so close to twin, it's ridiculous. |
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