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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 3:58:08 GMT
OK, now I see what you are saying. Not sure I'm ready to agree, but I see what you're saying  . Anything you can point me at that might show evidence that the CotF were/are capable of using fire magic? Given their reverence for weirwoods and all things foresty I'd assume that would be the last thing they'd be messing around with! Recall the story of Azor Ahai and the forging of Lightbringer? Many readers assume Azor Ahai was an actual person and Lightbringer his sword, but I believe Azor Ahai was the fire magic ritual that created the burning comet. The comet struck the moon (Nissa Nissa) sending large asteroids down upon Westeros. The fiery asteroids or moon meteors that fell from the sky looked like they were holding flaming swords, and symbolically they did. Flaming swords that slew nearly all human life. These sword carrying meteors became the first Nights Watch and they rode out to defeat the Others (First Men) in the battle for the dawn. The comet came to be referred to as "Lightbringer", because the Long Night of the age of First Men was over. |
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 4:26:50 GMT
OK, now I see what you are saying. Not sure I'm ready to agree, but I see what you're saying . Anything you can point me at that might show evidence that the CotF were/are capable of using fire magic? Given their reverence for weirwoods and all things foresty I'd assume that would be the last thing they'd be messing around with! Recall the story of Azor Ahai and the forging of Lightbringer? Many readers assume Azor Ahai was an actual person and Lightbringer his sword, but I believe Azor Ahai was the fire magic ritual that created the burning comet. The comet struck the moon (Nissa Nissa) sending large asteroids down upon Westeros. The fiery asteroids or moon meteors that fell from the sky looked like they were holding flaming swords, and symbolically they did. Flaming swords that slew nearly all human life. These sword carrying meteors became the first Nights Watch and they rode out to defeat the Others (First Men) in the battle for the dawn. The comet came to be referred to as "Lightbringer", because the Long Night of the age of First Men was over. First of all I love the idea of this. Imagining it is awesome! I also like that it can be considered independently of whether the First Men became the Others or not (I personally think they did not - at least on a large scale). But still, is there anything that points towards the CotF using fire magic? Or are you thinking someone else could have been involved? The story of Azor Ahai implies the whole world was in danger so maybe someone / a group from the East? |
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 13:21:04 GMT
Recall the story of Azor Ahai and the forging of Lightbringer? Many readers assume Azor Ahai was an actual person and Lightbringer his sword, but I believe Azor Ahai was the fire magic ritual that created the burning comet. The comet struck the moon (Nissa Nissa) sending large asteroids down upon Westeros. The fiery asteroids or moon meteors that fell from the sky looked like they were holding flaming swords, and symbolically they did. Flaming swords that slew nearly all human life. These sword carrying meteors became the first Nights Watch and they rode out to defeat the Others (First Men) in the battle for the dawn. The comet came to be referred to as "Lightbringer", because the Long Night of the age of First Men was over. First of all I love the idea of this. Imagining it is awesome! I also like that it can be considered independently of whether the First Men became the Others or not (I personally think they did not - at least on a large scale). But still, is there anything that points towards the CotF using fire magic? Or are you thinking someone else could have been involved? The story of Azor Ahai implies the whole world was in danger so maybe someone / a group from the East? I think it's symbolically implied. The fire of the comet, the fire of the meteors, the association with dragons. Recall Irri's story to Dany about the moon cracking open and a thousand thousand dragons poured forth. The thousand thousand dragons were burning asteroids. On the tv version they showed Leaf throwing fire balls to kill the wights that were guarding the mouth of the cave. In the book she's carrying a torch. I think they chose to go with fireballs to symbolically show that the Children were using fire magic. The Children know how to practice both kinds of magic, but if the First Men were abusing ice magic, then opposing magic was needed to defeat them. |
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 17:00:32 GMT
First of all I love the idea of this. Imagining it is awesome! I also like that it can be considered independently of whether the First Men became the Others or not (I personally think they did not - at least on a large scale). But still, is there anything that points towards the CotF using fire magic? Or are you thinking someone else could have been involved? The story of Azor Ahai implies the whole world was in danger so maybe someone / a group from the East? I think it's symbolically implied. The fire of the comet, the fire of the meteors, the association with dragons. Recall Irri's story to Dany about the moon cracking open and a thousand thousand dragons poured forth. The thousand thousand dragons were burning asteroids. On the tv version they showed Leaf throwing fire balls to kill the wights that were guarding the mouth of the cave. In the book she's carrying a torch. I think they chose to go with fireballs to symbolically show that the Children were using fire magic. The Children know how to practice both kinds of magic, but if the First Men were abusing ice magic, then opposing magic was needed to defeat them. OK, OK, I like this idea. I'm not fully onboard with the your views on the First Men being the Others but the Azor Ahai symbolism I like. And regardless of who (if anyone) is to blame for their creation there seems to be no doubt that the others are rooted in Ice magic. So to take this further what if there were 3 attempts to use magic to fight the Others, where each of them corresponds to the "hero", Azor Ahai's, attempts to forge his "hero's sword". If my theory about the Heroes of the First Men being humans with greenseeing abilities then a hero's "sword" could easily be magic. I could see the first attempt to temper the sword in water being symbolic of using the Hammer of Waters or something similar. What might the second attempt to temper the sword in the heart of a Lion be symbolic of? |
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 17, 2016 17:05:48 GMT
Well, I think the fireball wielding Leaf was cheesy. But, those who sing the song of earth... sing the song of earth. Not the song of dirt. Earth is everything, water,ice, stone, dirt, air, and fire. When the singers were scattered over the entire continent, they would use whatever was needed. Some would be in bogs, some in forests, some in caves and tunnels and mountains, even. Some of them had to be familiar with magma/lava since they utilized obsidian. At least some of them did or do.
These singer have inhabited these caves for millennia. Caves that go to the center of the earth! They were there during the Age of Heroes. Through the Long Night.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 17:06:44 GMT
I think it's symbolically implied. The fire of the comet, the fire of the meteors, the association with dragons. Recall Irri's story to Dany about the moon cracking open and a thousand thousand dragons poured forth. The thousand thousand dragons were burning asteroids. On the tv version they showed Leaf throwing fire balls to kill the wights that were guarding the mouth of the cave. In the book she's carrying a torch. I think they chose to go with fireballs to symbolically show that the Children were using fire magic. The Children know how to practice both kinds of magic, but if the First Men were abusing ice magic, then opposing magic was needed to defeat them. OK, OK, I like this idea. I'm not fully onboard with the your views on the First Men being the Others but the Azor Ahai symbolism I like. And regardless of who (if anyone) is to blame for their creation there seems to be no doubt that the others are rooted in Ice magic. So to take this further what if there were 3 attempts to use magic to fight the Others, where each of them corresponds to the "hero", Azor Ahai's, attempts to forge his "hero's sword". If my theory about the Heroes of the First Men being humans with greenseeing abilities then a hero's "sword" could easily be magic. I could see the first attempt to temper the sword in water being symbolic of using the Hammer of Waters or something similar. What might the second attempt to temper the sword in the heart of a Lion be symbolic of? I agree that the First Men were quite adept at magic, but they also abused it. Think of them as being like the Boltons. I like where you are going with the three attempts being compared to three "swords", because trying to "slay" them with the hammer of water, or rather by flooding, does seem to match the tempering in water. It didn't work. Lets talk through the "heart of the Lion", because that one is really interesting to think about....hmmm. |
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 17, 2016 17:07:07 GMT
That is, if the singers have any magic in them beyond skinchanging stuff and the bond with the weirwoods.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 17:12:21 GMT
LOL, I googled "heart of a lion" and found this parable:
I think having the heart of the lion means the Children tried to fight back.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 17, 2016 17:17:25 GMT
So to take this further what if there were 3 attempts to use magic to fight the Others, where each of them corresponds to the "hero", Azor Ahai's, attempts to forge his "hero's sword". If my theory about the Heroes of the First Men being humans with greenseeing abilities then a hero's "sword" could easily be magic. I could see the first attempt to temper the sword in water being symbolic of using the Hammer of Waters or something similar. What might the second attempt to temper the sword in the heart of a Lion be symbolic of? I like this idea a lot. Some random thoughts follow... Dalla says magic is a sword without a hilt, there is no safe way to handle it. Tempering the first blade Azor Ahai made in water could definitely be symbolic of the Hammer of the Waters, because both failed. The lion is the king the beasts. So symbolically it would mean royalty. This could represent the Pact. The Wisemen of both sides came together at the Isle of Faces. So we could interpret this as the leaders/kings of both sides coming together at a royal/sacred residence. As we know the Pact held until the Andals arrived, in other words, it failed too. The tempering of the blade in the heart of the woman he most loved, hmm. This could be the Wall. The Singers loved the earth (not dirt, heh) most of all and they were forced to cleave it in two. |
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 17, 2016 17:22:16 GMT
I think the three swords that the Children used to try to slay the First Men were:
Sword tempered in Water = Hammer of water
Sword tempered in Heart of Lion = they tried fighting back
Sword tempered in Nissa Nissa = they sent the comet Lightbringer into one of the moons. Nissa = moon, Nissa Nissa = two moons
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 18:56:40 GMT
So to take this further what if there were 3 attempts to use magic to fight the Others, where each of them corresponds to the "hero", Azor Ahai's, attempts to forge his "hero's sword". If my theory about the Heroes of the First Men being humans with greenseeing abilities then a hero's "sword" could easily be magic. I could see the first attempt to temper the sword in water being symbolic of using the Hammer of Waters or something similar. What might the second attempt to temper the sword in the heart of a Lion be symbolic of? I like this idea a lot. Some random thoughts follow... Dalla says magic is a sword without a hilt, there is no safe way to handle it. Tempering the first blade Azor Ahai made in water could definitely be symbolic of the Hammer of the Waters, because both failed. The lion is the king the beasts. So symbolically it would mean royalty. This could represent the Pact. The Wisemen of both sides came together at the Isle of Faces. So we could interpret this as the leaders/kings of both sides coming together at a royal/sacred residence. As we know the Pact held until the Andals arrived, in other words, it failed too. The tempering of the blade in the heart of the woman he most loved, hmm. This could be the Wall. The Singers loved the earth (not dirt, heh) most of all and they were forced to cleave it in two. I tried to do multiple quotes but couldn't get it to work. Re the Others being like First Men versions of the Boltons, I understand where you are coming from but I think at most these "evil" First Men would be a minority and I don't think it would be necessary to essentially extinguish the entire race as you propose. As an aside to this I have a very early-stage theory that the CotF accidently created the Others and that they are feeling guilty for messing with Nature i.e. the Old Gods. But anyway, regardless of that I think we can progress the "3 swords theory" without agreeing on who started it. I like Ser Duncan 's quote about magic being a sword without a hilt. It is stated that Azor Ahai is known by many names, one of which is Hykroon the Hero. I think it is fairly likely he is also the Last Hero. It is also stated that Azor Ahai did not work alone (I got this from the wiki and haven't been able to look up the exact passage awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai#cite_note-Rasos76.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-4) which could be a reference to the CotF helping. I've been thinking about Coldhands and how he fits with the version of the Long Night as I interpret it and I think he is the Last Hero resurrected. Consider this passage: ...For years he searched until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds. The Last Hero's blade snapped. I also read this reference from Melifeather in the Coldhands thread (which I still need to comment on!). Possibly a reference to the Last Hero's first "sword", water magic, failing. In my mind right now, I feel like all 3 swords were attempts to fight back against the Others (rather than a record of different events over a longer time period). The first being the Last Hero trying to use water magic, then the unidentified lion magic, and finally the Melifeather 's successful moon-meteor. I'm not sure what to make of it but I was searching some of the info on the wiki about the Long Night and found a reference to Lion of Night, a god in Yi Ti. The Faceless men believe the Lion of Night is another representation of the Many-Faced God (is this how Arya ties back in the final battle with the Others?) and have a statue of it in the House of Black and White. |
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 17, 2016 19:15:30 GMT
I tried to do multiple quotes but couldn't get it to work. . Highlight the section you want to quote. A button called Quick Quote will pop up. Click it. The highlighted section will be quoted separately in your reply box. Do as often as needed. ... now I need to read the rest of your post  |
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 17, 2016 19:30:19 GMT
If the CotF are "singers" then singers need songs. Songs like one about "Ice and Fire", probably. Meaning these "songs" are an oral history of events, battles, etc. So this means to me that there were other "songs" such as a song of Earth and Water (the Hammer of the the Waters), or even a song of Water and Fire (when the Rhoyne rose up against the Valyrians). Just some thoughts that I throw around occasionally.
I struggle with being on board with GRRM using metaphors to fill in every blank. i.e. Rhaegar's "lance", or Lightbringer not being a sword, so I don't know where to draw the line.
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Post by ac on Apr 17, 2016 19:32:11 GMT
I tried to do multiple quotes but couldn't get it to work. . Highlight the section you want to quote. A button called Quick Quote will pop up. Click it. The highlighted section will be quoted separately in your reply box. Do as often as needed. ... now I need to read the rest of your post Yeah I think it was because I started by clicking the button to quote the whole post and then couldn't add others in. But thanks I'll stick to Quick Quotes when I need to add multiple in one post. |
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 17, 2016 19:49:12 GMT
Yeah I think it was because I started by clicking the button to quote the whole post and then couldn't add others in. But thanks I'll stick to Quick Quotes when I need to add multiple in one post. You can select multiple quotes with the little gear on each one. Select as many as you like (it'll turn the gear box blue) and then hit the Quote button. It'll open up the Reply box with all the posts you picked in the post already. Then you can delete or highlight whatever you want to respond to. |
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. Anything you can point me at that might show evidence that the CotF were/are capable of using fire magic? Given their reverence for weirwoods and all things foresty I'd assume that would be the last thing they'd be messing around with!
