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Post by Melifeather on Apr 26, 2016 17:12:03 GMT
Back to Melisandre. With Davos wanting her help, I am wondering if someone will blunder in to her room while she is not glamoured. Wouldn't that be a shock. I'm also contemplating if it is her lifeforce that is in the ruby. Kinda like a direwolf or a weirwood, but the ruby is holding the spirit to the original body. Or like the Faceless where the appearance of the original owner of the face is used, and the memories are kept in tact. "Melanie, lot seven." Hello. Given the bathtub scene where she appears as her younger self in Selyse's company; could it be that she alone sees her true self in the mirror while others will still see her as a young woman. In the Melisandre Chapter; to break Mance's glamor; she speaks a word that echoes around the corners of the room; twisting like a worm in the ear; while Jon hears one word and Mance hears another; neither of which is the word that Mel spoke. She also criticizes Mance for not wearing his rattleshirt saying that he weakens the glamor that people see what they expect to see; that glamors are woven light and suggestion. Also, I don't think her ruby is a ruby. When she breaks Mance's glamor; his ruby goes dark. Maybe the ruby is obsidion and she is using the fire magic contained in the stone. I associate the ruby at he throat with her "drinking down" the fire. I think it's her connection to the cup of fire, the source of her own magic. "Melanie, lot seven." is a part of a dream that she has when she dozes off momentarily while keeping her watch in front of the fire. It's interesting that the faceless men also employ a form of glamor and that Arya is given this explanation as well. The big difference is that they have access to some of the deceased memories as demonstrated by Arya. I wonder how deep those memories go for someone like the Alchemist; who is well beyond acolyte status; who takes Pates face and clothes. Does he know everything Pate knows about the Citadel and it inhabitants? The idea that Mel's ruby could contain her soul or spirit is also interesting. I think this could be a theme when it comes to swords and horns and direwolves as well. But this being the show; none of the previous stuff matters. Yes, it would be a shock. .... bloody rorschach.... I see butterflies. All very interesting observations. I like the way you think girl! Melisandre does say regarding glamours, people see what they expect to see, so I think you are probably right. The books call her "gems" rubies, but again they probably look like rubies with the fire within.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 26, 2016 17:17:55 GMT
Back to Melisandre. With Davos wanting her help, I am wondering if someone will blunder in to her room while she is not glamoured. Wouldn't that be a shock. I'm also contemplating if it is her lifeforce that is in the ruby. Kinda like a direwolf or a weirwood, but the ruby is holding the spirit to the original body. Or like the Faceless where the appearance of the original owner of the face is used, and the memories are kept in tact. "Melanie, lot seven." Hello. Given the bathtub scene where she appears as her younger self in Selyse's company; could it be that she alone sees her true self in the mirror while others will still see her as a young woman. In the Melisandre Chapter; to break Mance's glamor; she speaks a word that echoes around the corners of the room; twisting like a worm in the ear; while Jon hears one word and Mance hears another; neither of which is the word that Mel spoke. She also criticizes Mance for not wearing his rattleshirt saying that he weakens the glamor that people see what they expect to see; that glamors are woven light and suggestion. Also, I don't think her ruby is a ruby. When she breaks Mance's glamor; his ruby goes dark. Maybe the ruby is obsidion and she is using the fire magic contained in the stone. I associate the ruby at he throat with her "drinking down" the fire. I think it's her connection to the cup of fire, the source of her own magic. "Melanie, lot seven." is a part of a dream that she has when she dozes off momentarily while keeping her watch in front of the fire. It's interesting that the faceless men also employ a form of glamor and that Arya is given this explanation as well. The big difference is that they have access to some of the deceased memories as demonstrated by Arya. I wonder how deep those memories go for someone like the Alchemist; who is well beyond acolyte status; who takes Pates face and clothes. Does he know everything Pate knows about the Citadel and it inhabitants? The idea that Mel's ruby could contain her soul or spirit is also interesting. I think this could be a theme when it comes to swords and horns and direwolves as well. But this being the show; none of the previous stuff matters. Yes, it would be a shock. .... bloody rorschach.... I see butterflies. The ruby, or whatever it is, at her throat is a two way connection. I think. The magic is flowing in and out of it. Could it be another heart? Like the blue heart of the undying. The Faceless Men, well, that is something I've been thinking over. If they can use the faces (which hold memories/conciousness of the dead) to prolong their lives, then could Mel be using some similar magic through her necklace? And to appear as someone else, of course.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 26, 2016 17:23:08 GMT
min great observations! Correct me if I'm wrong, but since we've never actually gotten confirmation that rubies=glamours in the novels (although it's been speculated), then this could be a pretty big spoiler. If rubies=absolutely glamours then Rhaegar's armor confirms some heretical suggestions that it was not Rhaegar who fought at the ToH and gave Lyanna the laurel, and that it was not Rhaegar who fought and died on the Trident. And Rhaegar's lost rubies are not people in the line of Aerys & Rhaella or whatever the popular theory is. Even if there is a deeper meaning to the rubies... and I don't think there is, a visual medium like TV makes it pretty clear... now there is more to question what really happened to Rhaegar back in the day.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Apr 26, 2016 17:25:28 GMT
The glamour, yes it depends on the eye of the beholder, but only to small degree. If everyone sees Mel as a beautiful young woman with a heart shaped face then there must be much more to it than the perception of others.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 26, 2016 17:27:39 GMT
The ruby, or whatever it is, at her throat is a two way connection. I think. The magic is flowing in and out of it. Could it be another heart? Like the blue heart of the undying. The Faceless Men, well, that is something I've been thinking over. If they can use the faces (which hold memories/conciousness of the dead) to prolong their lives, then could Mel be using some similar magic through her necklace? And to appear as someone else, of course. Hmm. I like this. Because there has to be some connection to "something else" in order for her to birth shadowbabies.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Apr 26, 2016 17:33:40 GMT
Ugh this discussion is so interesting that I want to move it to the main boards but I don't know where to put it! min I love the idea the ruby is actually obsidian. It would make a lot of sense. While the glamoured Rattleshirt is burning, Mel says she was grateful Jon killed him with the arrow because she felt the gem would burn through her. As we know from Marwyn, the glass candles burn but are not consumed. Maester Flagons the Blue heart of the Undying is another great explanation as to how the gem would work. It channels the life force through a single source that is shared by those connected to it. Just like Mance says that he can feel Mel in his ruby, and it seems to be connected to Mel's ruby as well, since they both beat in time with each other, as Mel observes. Could the ruby be pieces of one glass candle that were broken up and still connected to each other? Or it is just inherent in dragonglass to be connected, since Marwyn said with one glass candle you can talk to another glass candle?
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 17:34:07 GMT
All very interesting observations. I like the way you think girl! Melisandre does say regarding glamours, people see what they expect to see, so I think you are probably right. The books call her "gems" rubies, but again they probably look like rubies with the fire within. Why thank you! Sometime I might say something interesting and surprise even myself. LOL. I also wonder if the faceless men maintain all the memories of all the faces they wear, like the weirwood trees, in a way. Another kind of crooked stitching between realms. And how deep those memories go. I imagine that the Alchemist/Pate is positioned to act as Sam's guide to the Citadel since he has a master key to the forbidden libraries and other out of the way places.
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 17:49:06 GMT
The ruby, or whatever it is, at her throat is a two way connection. I think. The magic is flowing in and out of it. Could it be another heart? Like the blue heart of the undying. The Faceless Men, well, that is something I've been thinking over. If they can use the faces (which hold memories/conciousness of the dead) to prolong their lives, then could Mel be using some similar magic through her necklace? And to appear as someone else, of course. Yes, yes, yes! This is what I think exactly. The fiery heart exists like the blue heart in the HotU. They are the sources; the fountains of the drunken god, the cups of fire and ice. I think the FM have access to a kind of macabre library in their hall of faces. But I don't know about the ruby. I think she maintains an extended life by drinking from the cup of fire. It may store her soul in the same way that perhaps a sword or a horn is cursed to contain the soul of it's maker. The idea that a brother of the night's watch is literally the horn, sword and shield or becomes so when they claim the object. Going back to the wall as the serpent and sword; the stories of Japanese cursed swords contain the malice of their makers. I wonder if this is true of the palestone sword and the horn of winter. Or lightbringer. Jon's beserker dream might point to the sword overcoming the claimant. And Syrio Forell tells Arys that it's impossible to drop your sword when it's a extension of your body.
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 17:56:15 GMT
min great observations! Correct me if I'm wrong, but since we've never actually gotten confirmation that rubies=glamours in the novels (although it's been speculated), then this could be a pretty big spoiler. If rubies=absolutely glamours then Rhaegar's armor confirms some heretical suggestions that it was not Rhaegar who fought at the ToH and gave Lyanna the laurel, and that it was not Rhaegar who fought and died on the Trident. And Rhaegar's lost rubies are not people in the line of Aerys & Rhaella or whatever the popular theory is. Even if there is a deeper meaning to the rubies... and I don't think there is, a visual medium like TV makes it pretty clear... now there is more to question what really happened to Rhaegar back in the day. I do wonder about the Tattered Prince. But I still have trouble thinking that someone other than Rhaegar was killed by Robert. Since the rubies were scattered into the water. But we're never told if Robert actually lifted the visor or what happened to Rhaegar's body. They might in fact be real rubies since they occassionally wash up on the beach at the Quiet Isle.
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 17:59:44 GMT
The glamour, yes it depends on the eye of the beholder, but only to small degree. If everyone sees Mel as a beautiful young woman with a heart shaped face then there must be much more to it than the perception of others. And how much of her art is pyromancy, suggestion (hypnosis). She says her power is stronger at the Wall; her voice and word more powerful. But she weaves the light of Stannis sword, her glamor, Mance and Rattleshirt's glamor and I suspect the horn she burned was also glamored.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 26, 2016 18:00:27 GMT
I just rewatched the bathtub scene and there is def some mumbo jumbo going on. Mel asks Selyse to get a "blue vial" and she sprinkles it around and breathes it in. The whole scene is about the deceptions and lies she uses, she literally explains it to Selyse.
D&D may have known exactly what they were doing. If she had worn the necklace in that scene, it would have called attention to it, and there would have been speculation among the TV only audience about what it means, etc. Possibly she's able to create a glamour for a short period of time without the necklace, or by some other tricks.
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 18:03:54 GMT
Ugh this discussion is so interesting that I want to move it to the main boards but I don't know where to put it! min I love the idea the ruby is actually obsidian. It would make a lot of sense. While the glamoured Rattleshirt is burning, Mel says she was grateful Jon killed him with the arrow because she felt the gem would burn through her. As we know from Marwyn, the glass candles burn but are not consumed. Maester Flagons the Blue heart of the Undying is another great explanation as to how the gem would work. It channels the life force through a single source that is shared by those connected to it. Just like Mance says that he can feel Mel in his ruby, and it seems to be connected to Mel's ruby as well, since they both beat in time with each other, as Mel observes. Could the ruby be pieces of one glass candle that were broken up and still connected to each other? Or it is just inherent in dragonglass to be connected, since Marwyn said with one glass candle you can talk to another glass candle? Yes, I say it's another use of a glass candle. If you compare Sam's description of the glass candles in Marywin's room and the lightbringer sword that Sam describes to Aemon; the similarities about the quality of the light and shadow are there. That's a step up for Mel from lighting swords on fire. When Jon (or Sam) tells her about the dragonglass killing the Other; she laughs; of course she knows about the properties of obsidion she says. Not only that, there is plenty of it at Dragonstone.
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Post by min on Apr 26, 2016 18:13:55 GMT
I just rewatched the bathtub scene and there is def some mumbo jumbo going on. Mel asks Selyse to get a "blue vial" and she sprinkles it around and breathes it in. The whole scene is about the deceptions and lies she uses, she literally explains it to Selyse. D&D may have known exactly what they were doing. If she had worn the necklace in that scene, it would have called attention to it, and there would have been speculation among the TV only audience about what it means, etc. Possibly she's able to create a glamour for a short period of time without the necklace, or by some other tricks. Yes and in the books she also says that she has a potion that is a kind of truth serum. So I wonder what she knows about what Mance knows. This is why I think the horn she burned was a fake replaced by the great horn used on the wall. She wouldn't dare destroy something that is purported to maintain the wards on the wall against the Others. That was pure theater designed to intimidate the Wildlings, a show of power. Unless she can read runes.
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Post by Melifeather on Apr 26, 2016 18:28:40 GMT
But I still have trouble thinking that someone other than Rhaegar was killed by Robert. I think Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, but I don't think it was Rhaegar that kidnapped Lyanna. I believe Robert Baratheon wore Rhaegar's armor while Rhaegar was away in Dorne, but people believed it was him, because they saw the armor. I'm conflicted as to who wore the armor at the tourney of Harrenhall. It is possible that Robert wore it there also with Rhaegar's permission. Rhaegar was noted as being at the tourney and participating in the singing contest, so if Robert had the armor then Rhaegar allowed it. This would solve two questions: 1) how did he get the armor, and 2)if he was involved in a plot, then this would plant the seed and begin the rumor that Rhaegar had an interest in Lyanna.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Apr 26, 2016 18:30:38 GMT
So I wonder what she knows about what Mance knows. This is why I think the horn she burned was a fake replaced by the great horn used on the wall. I think she absolutely knows more about what Mance is up to. And this is why I think they kept Mance-glamored-as-Tormund a secret for all this time in the show. They needed the "glamor is possibly" reveal for a more important moment. And I agree the horn was a fake!
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