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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 15:58:29 GMT
I refuse to believe that GRRM would allow his biggest reveals to come from the show first.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 16, 2016 16:00:05 GMT
I think Brienne will end up at Winterfell at some point in the books. She is still looking for Arya and Sansa and there is now a rumor of Arya at the Wall. I don't know if Jon Snow will go to Winterfell or Ramsey will go to the Wall and Jon's body resides in a ice cell. I like the idea that Ramsey goes to the Wall; defeats the NW who won't join him and bends the weaker minded watchmen to his will. Then takes up residence at the Night Fort where, Selyse, Val and Shireen end up. I don't think Mel or Val will have anything to do with Jon's revival or that he will return a living man. Stannis dies in the battle for Winterfell and Theon is given to the weirwoods. At the end of DwD, Drogon and Dany were burning their way to Vaes Dothrak. In other words big departures from the book all around. The question for me is are we being told anything or given any hints about the big questions. The points that must be the same if in fact D&D know or have been told where they shouldn't deviate. The ToJ has to fall into that category. That Jon comes back from the dead another. That there is a battle for Winterfell. That Davos finds Rickon at Skagos and brings him back. That Bran can connect with the past in ways that he is warned against. That Sansa will survive and reclaim Winterfell. Are there any subtle hints about the truths?
Connections between red rahloo and the house of black and white: - funeral rights Jon is Ned's son not Arya's cousin - Arya and the Waif in the game of lies. Rahloo and the Great Other are/were men - Jon is a god, Dany a goddess If you recall, there is a scene with Edd and Jon, that starts with a strong focus on the hilt of Jon's sword, Longclaw. The hilt has the image of his direwolf, Ghost. I have a theory that in the books, (and perhaps the show), Jon's psyche is split in two at the time of his stabbing. The positive aspects of Jon (the oathkeeper part of Jon to use a sword metaphor) was transferred to Ghost when Jon was stabbed. The negative/shadow aspect of Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.
To continue the metaphor, I find it interesting that several characters use the metaphor that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt. Or to put it another way, sorcery is like the pointy end of the sword. Jon's psyche being split into two pieces is like a sword broken in two. You have the pointy end, the blade, which is his shadow self, the part of him that lusts after Winterfell and dreams of killing his father and brother, and the part that would yearn for vengeance. Thus Jon's last thought: stick them with the pointy end.
Then you have the hilt of the sword. For Jon it's symbolized by his direwolf. Literally in the case of Longclaw, and figuratively in the case of Jon. The more positive aspects of his personality have gone into Ghost. If you go back to ASOS, when Jon is thinking about Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, he almost talks himself into accepting it. Then suddenly he recalls his oaths. It's at that moment that he realizes Ghost has returned to him. Ghost's presence seems to be linked to Jon's more honorable side.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 16:20:02 GMT
I think Brienne will end up at Winterfell at some point in the books. She is still looking for Arya and Sansa and there is now a rumor of Arya at the Wall. I don't know if Jon Snow will go to Winterfell or Ramsey will go to the Wall and Jon's body resides in a ice cell. I like the idea that Ramsey goes to the Wall; defeats the NW who won't join him and bends the weaker minded watchmen to his will. Then takes up residence at the Night Fort where, Selyse, Val and Shireen end up. I don't think Mel or Val will have anything to do with Jon's revival or that he will return a living man. Stannis dies in the battle for Winterfell and Theon is given to the weirwoods. At the end of DwD, Drogon and Dany were burning their way to Vaes Dothrak. In other words big departures from the book all around. The question for me is are we being told anything or given any hints about the big questions. The points that must be the same if in fact D&D know or have been told where they shouldn't deviate. The ToJ has to fall into that category. That Jon comes back from the dead another. That there is a battle for Winterfell. That Davos finds Rickon at Skagos and brings him back. That Bran can connect with the past in ways that he is warned against. That Sansa will survive and reclaim Winterfell. Are there any subtle hints about the truths?
Connections between red rahloo and the house of black and white: - funeral rights Jon is Ned's son not Arya's cousin - Arya and the Waif in the game of lies. Rahloo and the Great Other are/were men - Jon is a god, Dany a goddess If you recall, there is a scene with Edd and Jon, that starts with a strong focus on the hilt of Jon's sword, Longclaw. The hilt has the image of his direwolf, Ghost. I have a theory that in the books, (and perhaps the show), Jon's psyche is split in two at the time of his stabbing. The positive aspects of Jon (the oathkeeper part of Jon to use a sword metaphor) was transferred to Ghost when Jon was stabbed. The negative/shadow aspect of Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.
To continue the metaphor, I find it interesting that several characters use the metaphor that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt. Or to put it another way, sorcery is like the pointy end of the sword. Jon's psyche being split into two pieces is like a sword broken in two. You have the pointy end, the blade, which is his shadow self, the part of him that lusts after Winterfell and dreams of killing his father and brother, and the part that would yearn for vengeance. Thus Jon's last thought: stick them with the pointy end.
Then you have the hilt of the sword. For Jon it's symbolized by his direwolf. Literally in the case of Longclaw, and figuratively in the case of Jon. The more positive aspects of his personality have gone into Ghost. If you go back to ASOS, when Jon is thinking about Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, he almost talks himself into accepting it. Then suddenly he recalls his oaths. It's at that moment that he realizes Ghost has returned to him. Ghost's presence seems to be linked to Jon's more honorable side.
It's elegant. I like it a lot. Weasel Pie pointed out this tidbit in Ep 3 Oathbreaker. Arya is smacked by the waif when she tells a lie. The waif asks her about her family. Arya is not smacked when she says she has a half-brother. I have yet to check the books. Could it be that we will find out about Jon's parentage through Arya rather than the ToJ. Recall that she meets up with Edric Dayne at one point and he tells her that he and Jon were milk brothers. Arya assumes Jon's mother is Wylla. But here's the clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYWdklp3lVEThis either means that Arya believes Jon is her half-brother and she is not telling a lie; or that it's a truth known to the FM.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 16:22:57 GMT
Arya is not smacked when she says she has a half-brother. And just to point out... she doesn't mention Jon by name. Which could mean she has a half-brother we don't know about.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 16:31:25 GMT
Arya is not smacked when she says she has a half-brother. And just to point out... she doesn't mention Jon by name. Which could mean she has a half-brother we don't know about.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 16:37:46 GMT
I took a few minutes to transcribe the full text of the show version of the Pink Letter To the Traitor and Bastard Jon Snow,
You allowed thousands of wildlings past the Wall. You have betrayed your own kind, you have betrayed the North. Winterfell is mine, Bastard. Come and see. Your brother Rickon is in my dungeon. His direwolf’s skin is on my floor. Come and see.
I want my bride back. Send her to me, Bastard, and I will not trouble you or your wildling lovers. Keep her from me and I will ride North and slaughter every wildling man, woman and babe living under your protection. You will watch as I skin them living.
You will watch as my soldiers take turns raping your sister. You will watch as my dogs devour your wild little brother. Then I will spoon your eyes from their sockets and let my dogs do the rest.
Come and see.
Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 16:39:53 GMT
Wouldn't that be something if Jon was Ned's bastard after all?
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 16:48:29 GMT
Wouldn't that be something if Jon was Ned's bastard after all? It would put a harsh on someone's buzz.
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 16:49:40 GMT
Did you catch that line where Jon said to Sansa that if he didn't keep her safe, father would come back from the dead and kill him with his sword? Foreshadowing?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 16, 2016 17:00:53 GMT
To the Traitor and Bastard Jon Snow, You allowed thousands of wildlings past the Wall. You have betrayed your own kind, you have betrayed the North. Winterfell is mine, Bastard. Come and see. Your brother Rickon is in my dungeon. His direwolf’s skin is on my floor. Come and see. I want my bride back. Send her to me, Bastard, and I will not trouble you or your wildling lovers. Keep her from me and I will ride North and slaughter every wildling man, woman and babe living under your protection. You will watch as I skin them living. You will watch as my soldiers take turns raping your sister. You will watch as my dogs devour your wild little brother. Then I will spoon your eyes from their sockets and let my dogs do the rest. Come and see. Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North It's quite good considering all the changes the show has made. We've got 3 bastards and 3 come and sees. Not bad it keeping to the tone of the original letter. However there's nothing in it that isn't questionably true, as in the book letter. We know Stannis is dead, as he's claiming and we don't see Abel get captured, and the spear wives were all dead I think, so he can't claim his skinning of them as a victory. Where as here, we know all his claims to be true.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 17:06:38 GMT
I still find the letter very suspicious. How does Ramsay know about the "traitor" events? Since when has he cared about the wildlings, other than Smalljon (I think it was Smalljon) telling him about it?
And what's with the list of threatened assaults? The same thing happens to Dany of course, in the same episode.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 16, 2016 17:06:49 GMT
This either means that Arya believes Jon is her half-brother and she is not telling a lie; or that it's a truth known to the FM. I think it means she does have a half brother. If I remember correctly, Arya out of all of them, calls Jon her brother and he calls her 'little sister', so I would think the Waif somehow knows that Jon isn't her full brother, but it is what Arya believes, which is why she originally says 'she had one sister, Sansa, and four brothers.' To Arya, Jon is her brother, it doesn't matter he's not Catelyn's child like the rest of them. ETA Isn't there a passage in the books where Sansa corrects Arya on calling Jon their brother? She tells her he's their half brother, not a Stark like them? Sansa was always keeping Jon at arms length and following Catelyn's disapproval of his living with them.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 17:07:12 GMT
Did you catch that line where Jon said to Sansa that if he didn't keep her safe, father would come back from the dead and kill him with his sword? Foreshadowing? yeah, that was awesome
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 17:16:17 GMT
Random thoughts Sand Snakes rule Dorne Dany rules the Dothraki Castellan in Casterly Rock Castellan at Storm's End Ramsay rules Winterfell Edmure is a hostage, Blackfish is MIA and Riverrun belongs to Walder Frey (in the show? not sure where it stands)
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 16, 2016 18:09:43 GMT
Random realisation!
Brienne's sword is half of Ice. She's at the Wall and will probably go wherever Sansa and Jon go. There are now two Valyrian swords at the Wall, one of them being part of the original sword of winter.
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