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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 18:14:58 GMT
Brienne's sword is half of Ice. I'm wondering if she knows that. Can't remember what Jaime may have told her.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 16, 2016 18:27:00 GMT
If you recall, there is a scene with Edd and Jon, that starts with a strong focus on the hilt of Jon's sword, Longclaw. The hilt has the image of his direwolf, Ghost. I have a theory that in the books, (and perhaps the show), Jon's psyche is split in two at the time of his stabbing. The positive aspects of Jon (the oathkeeper part of Jon to use a sword metaphor) was transferred to Ghost when Jon was stabbed. The negative/shadow aspect of Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.
To continue the metaphor, I find it interesting that several characters use the metaphor that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt. Or to put it another way, sorcery is like the pointy end of the sword. Jon's psyche being split into two pieces is like a sword broken in two. You have the pointy end, the blade, which is his shadow self, the part of him that lusts after Winterfell and dreams of killing his father and brother, and the part that would yearn for vengeance. Thus Jon's last thought: stick them with the pointy end.
Then you have the hilt of the sword. For Jon it's symbolized by his direwolf. Literally in the case of Longclaw, and figuratively in the case of Jon. The more positive aspects of his personality have gone into Ghost. If you go back to ASOS, when Jon is thinking about Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, he almost talks himself into accepting it. Then suddenly he recalls his oaths. It's at that moment that he realizes Ghost has returned to him. Ghost's presence seems to be linked to Jon's more honorable side.
I like this a lot. Since last ep I've been thinking about Jon's dream in which he is armored in black ice wielding a fiery sword, and I can't help but feel that this was a premonition of what he will become after he is 'corrupted' by Mel's fire magic. He's atop the wall swinging away at his NW brothers, his family, all the people he loves, while screaming that he's the lord of Winterfell. I think Mel's resurrection is going to give him the wrong kind of magical infusion and send him down sortof an Anakin Skywalker path. Ghost is going to have to lure him away from the Dark Side.
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 18:47:49 GMT
Brienne's sword is half of Ice. I'm wondering if she knows that. Can't remember what Jaime may have told her. She knows. That's why it's called Oathkeeper. She thought it was fitting that she could carry out her oath to Catelyn while wielding Ned's sword.
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Post by cooterian15 on May 16, 2016 19:49:34 GMT
Wanted to throw my two cents in on the episode and then a thought that comes to mind.
First, the episode ranked high on my scale; really enjoyed. I will not rehash what several have already said, but would add this....we really are in spoiler territory with regards to TWoW. I for one have been trying to evaluate scenes and ascertain whether they would fall in Canon, or simply be the mummer's version. My main focus is to get to the end of the story in my life time, whether that is through the books (waiting on Martin) or the short circuit approach through HBO. I know I'm like most folks and have already devoted almost 5 years of my life to the never ending saga, I'm sure there are some that have devoted even longer, especially if they picked up books early on. But I'm digressing and wanted to get back to spoiler territory. One such example is Dany and her burning down the Dosh Khaleen that we witnessed this week. I really can see this playing out in Martin's books and would fit well with the whole bringing the dothraki hoard to Mereen and smashing the Slave Masters.
My point...Dany seems to like going to the well on the whole fire thing (Khal Drogo's funeral pyre and now the Dosh Khaleen). I wonder if this is not having an adverse effect on her after all, fires consumes right? I can't help wondering that as she continues to us "fire magic" if this is not somehow altering her physically or mentally.
Thoughts?
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 20:09:54 GMT
I was expecting something to do with the old crones coming out of the lake...not burning all the khals! But maybe the crawling crones are everyone kneeling, and the lake represents all the different tribes? The only problem is that now the show has made her fireproof and I'm not sure GRRM intended that.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 20:11:06 GMT
She knows. That's why it's called Oathkeeper. She thought it was fitting that she could carry out her oath to Catelyn while wielding Ned's sword. Thanks for jogging my memory, absolutely right wonder if this is not having an adverse effect on her after all, fires consumes right? I can't help wondering that as she continues to us "fire magic" if this is not somehow altering her physically or mentally. I agree entirely. She had a severe look to her when she had her Drew Barrymore Firestarter "stare/firewind in the hair" thing going on when she walked out of the hut. It was not one of the usual expressions Emilia gives us for Dany, and that screamed "the director told me to make this face." Yes, I'm harsh on Emilia, but, like you, I pay close attention to the decisions D&D/writers and the director of the week make. So, yes, I think Dany has gone through a change because of this latest baptism by fire, no doubt.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 20:22:39 GMT
She knows. That's why it's called Oathkeeper. She thought it was fitting that she could carry out her oath to Catelyn while wielding Ned's sword. Thanks for jogging my memory, absolutely right wonder if this is not having an adverse effect on her after all, fires consumes right? I can't help wondering that as she continues to us "fire magic" if this is not somehow altering her physically or mentally. I agree entirely. She had a severe look to her when she had her Drew Barrymore Firestarter "stare/firewind in the hair" thing going on when she walked out of the hut. It was not one of the usual expressions Emilia gives us for Dany, and that screamed "the director told me to make this face." Yes, I'm harsh on Emilia, but, like you, I pay close attention to the decisions D&D/writers and the director of the week make. So, yes, I think Dany has gone through a change because of this latest baptism by fire, no doubt. That struck me as well, that she looked severe and imperious. She's taken the communion cup, the san greal, blood of my blood.
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 20:25:43 GMT
heh I'm with you min I loved it! I got choked up with Sansa and Jon hugged, but then my thoughts went straight to Black Crow and his insistence that Jon and Arya are going to have a "thing" and then he has now switched to Sansa. ugh My BF was excited to see Dany's clothes burned off. Seems she is impervious to fire, at least on the show. I watched the show twice since my BF came over late and I had already noticed Tormand eyeballing Brienne the first time, so when my BF watched it, he's like, "oh, he likes her." and I laughed because he's supposed to have mated with a bear. You know the actor playing Tommen isn't too shabby. When he dismissed Pycelle I thought it was very believable whereas before I always thought he came off a bit flat. I did like the Loras scene with Margaery. I'm rooting for her to be as strong as old granny Lady Olenna. Mated with a bear! That's hilarious. Her reaction equally hilarious. I agree with actor playing Tommen. Really good, I like him a lot. I did read your post on Heresy today; but I don't know anything about the Arya/Jon hookup. Seems unlikley to me. Jon is dead. How dead? Was he shovelling food in his mouth? I'll have to check that again. lol, here's BC's reference to Jon hooking up with his sister again: he just can't help himself
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 20:35:53 GMT
I wouldn't be too harsh on BC, the 1993 letter spells it out Jon and Arya plain enough, though obviously much in the story concept has changed since then.
Eliminating the time gap, etc, meant Arya couldn't age up, etc.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 16, 2016 20:40:40 GMT
If you recall, there is a scene with Edd and Jon, that starts with a strong focus on the hilt of Jon's sword, Longclaw. The hilt has the image of his direwolf, Ghost. I have a theory that in the books, (and perhaps the show), Jon's psyche is split in two at the time of his stabbing. The positive aspects of Jon (the oathkeeper part of Jon to use a sword metaphor) was transferred to Ghost when Jon was stabbed. The negative/shadow aspect of Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre.
To continue the metaphor, I find it interesting that several characters use the metaphor that sorcery is like a sword without a hilt. Or to put it another way, sorcery is like the pointy end of the sword. Jon's psyche being split into two pieces is like a sword broken in two. You have the pointy end, the blade, which is his shadow self, the part of him that lusts after Winterfell and dreams of killing his father and brother, and the part that would yearn for vengeance. Thus Jon's last thought: stick them with the pointy end.
Then you have the hilt of the sword. For Jon it's symbolized by his direwolf. Literally in the case of Longclaw, and figuratively in the case of Jon. The more positive aspects of his personality have gone into Ghost. If you go back to ASOS, when Jon is thinking about Stannis' offer to take Winterfell, he almost talks himself into accepting it. Then suddenly he recalls his oaths. It's at that moment that he realizes Ghost has returned to him. Ghost's presence seems to be linked to Jon's more honorable side.
I like this a lot. Since last ep I've been thinking about Jon's dream in which he is armored in black ice wielding a fiery sword, and I can't help but feel that this was a premonition of what he will become after he is 'corrupted' by Mel's fire magic. He's atop the wall swinging away at his NW brothers, his family, all the people he loves, while screaming that he's the lord of Winterfell. I think Mel's resurrection is going to give him the wrong kind of magical infusion and send him down sortof an Anakin Skywalker path. Ghost is going to have to lure him away from the Dark Side. Remember that Melisandre works with shadowmagic. I think GRRM must be fairly knowledgeable about the writings of Carl Jung, and according to Carl Jung, we all have a "shadow" aspect of our personality. It contains our darker impulses that we tend to disassociate ourselves from. When Melisandre conjured forth the shadow assassin, she did so by drawing forth Stannis' shadow. In other words, Stannis' negative impulses towards his brother. Deep down he wanted to commit one of the biggest taboos in Westeros, he wanted to kill his brother. Melisandre made it happen by literally turning this negative part of Stannis' psyche and giving it a type of physical form.
I think Lady Stoneheart contains the negative aspects of Catelyn. Alive, Catelyn was a fairly well rounded mostly positive character. But she did have her dark side, as Jon can attest. Lady Stoneheart just contains Cat's dark vengeful side.
I think if Melisandre does indeed bring Jon back from the dead, the same thing is going to happen. She will use Jon's shadow self to bring him back from the dead, and in doing so his negative traits will be controlling. The first book is full of Jon's negative thoughts, that he keeps buried deep. He imagines Ben dead on the side of a road, after Benjen angers him when he gets to Castle Black. He dreams about killing his father and killing his brother and taking Winterfell for himself. These are the traits that will fuel Unjon.
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Post by Melifeather on May 16, 2016 20:54:11 GMT
I wouldn't be too harsh on BC, the 1993 letter spells it out Jon and Arya plain enough, though obviously much in the story concept has changed since then. Eliminating the time gap, etc, meant Arya couldn't age up, etc. You're right...I should'nt...if the synapses has them in a romance, then I'm hoping he's not related.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 20:58:29 GMT
I like this a lot. Since last ep I've been thinking about Jon's dream in which he is armored in black ice wielding a fiery sword, and I can't help but feel that this was a premonition of what he will become after he is 'corrupted' by Mel's fire magic. He's atop the wall swinging away at his NW brothers, his family, all the people he loves, while screaming that he's the lord of Winterfell. I think Mel's resurrection is going to give him the wrong kind of magical infusion and send him down sortof an Anakin Skywalker path. Ghost is going to have to lure him away from the Dark Side. Remember that Melisandre works with shadowmagic. I think GRRM must be fairly knowledgeable about the writings of Carl Jung, and according to Carl Jung, we all have a "shadow" aspect of our personality. It contains our darker impulses that we tend to disassociate ourselves from. When Melisandre conjured forth the shadow assassin, she did so by drawing forth Stannis' shadow. In other words, Stannis' negative impulses towards his brother. Deep down he wanted to commit one of the biggest taboos in Westeros, he wanted to kill his brother. Melisandre made it happen by literally turning this negative part of Stannis' psyche and giving it a type of physical form.
I think Lady Stoneheart contains the negative aspects of Catelyn. Alive, Catelyn was a fairly well rounded mostly positive character. But she did have her dark side, as Jon can attest. Lady Stoneheart just contains Cat's dark vengeful side.
I think if Melisandre does indeed bring Jon back from the dead, the same thing is going to happen. She will use Jon's shadow self to bring him back from the dead, and in doing so his negative traits will be controlling. The first book is full of Jon's negative thoughts, that he keeps buried deep. He imagines Ben dead on the side of a road, after Benjen angers him when he gets to Castle Black. He dreams about killing his father and killing his brother and taking Winterfell for himself. These are the traits that will fuel Unjon.
God I wonder what would happen if FrankenGregor ever got on the loose because I have the sense that Qyburn has been playing with shadowbinding as well.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 16, 2016 21:02:38 GMT
I'm hoping he's not related. When the letter came out, this was a huge point IMO. For GRRM to make the ultimate romance between siblings/half-siblings or even cousins would be bizarre, despite the fact that incestual relationships are a thing in the series. It's a strange statement for an author to make for his life's work. While cousin-marriage etc. has historical precedence and occurs in the novels without eyebrows raised, I still find it hard to believe that GRRM thought to himself "and the ultimate denouement would be that Jon falls in love with his cousin." Ergo, Jon is not their cousin.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 21:05:00 GMT
I wouldn't be too harsh on BC, the 1993 letter spells it out Jon and Arya plain enough, though obviously much in the story concept has changed since then. Eliminating the time gap, etc, meant Arya couldn't age up, etc. You're right...I should'nt...if the synapses has them in a romance, then I'm hoping he's not related. I wonder if it's Arya who has to undo Unjon's and Stoneheart's crooked stitching at some point. If she has to deliver the gift of Mercy. And Ungregor can only be killed by 'no man'. If Brienne and Pod find her in the end frozen in the ice still clutching needle. Because I have to have an answer one way or the other before I die too.
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Post by min on May 16, 2016 21:13:59 GMT
I wouldn't be too harsh on BC, the 1993 letter spells it out Jon and Arya plain enough, though obviously much in the story concept has changed since then. Eliminating the time gap, etc, meant Arya couldn't age up, etc. You're right...I should'nt...if the synapses has them in a romance, then I'm hoping he's not related. I don't know about the letter but does this come from the old heresy that the stark bloodline is kept through the female line?
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