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Post by min on May 12, 2016 15:30:46 GMT
I wonder if Chains is Maester Walys? Either that or he's Ulmer up at the Wall. Does Chains show up one of Arya's chapters at the Dreadfort? The Quiet Isle and the Wall seem like good places to look as well.
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 15:48:30 GMT
I wonder if Chains is Maester Walys? Either that or he's Ulmer up at the Wall. Does Chains show up one of Arya's chapters at the Dreadfort? The Quiet Isle and the Wall seem like good places to look as well. Chains is an Essos character as Dunc pointed out for me. However, maester Walys has gone missing and a few of us have been looking!
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 12, 2016 15:53:03 GMT
Bear with me on this train of thought, but the mention of Walys along with confirmation in the show that Hodor/Willas once was able to talk normally, and that he is of an age with the Stark kids dredges up an old thought I had. I often accuse Walys of being a part of whatever happened to Lyanna. He was her Maester after all. But he also would have been Hodor's maester. So if we need to tie in an inversion, and Walys handily fits, then we could examine Hodor as well in the burning discussion of the OP, namely, someone coming back to life and not being as they were. Normally, we talk about Beric, Ser Robert Strong, Lady Stoneheart, but we don't often talk about how Drogo changed after his encounter with blood magic. They led him around, he liked the warmth of the sun, but obviously he was "gone." So, what if something happened to Willas that resulted in an attempt at magic? As if he were an experiment. Show Willas is portrayed as a bit dim before he was Hodored Book Hodor is said to have been of normal intelligence as a child, no? Hodor likes the hot pools of Winterfell and hates the cold water (possibly the cold water in the Heart Tree pool? Is this the source of his accident? Because it's central to the flashback in the book.) He also likes the warmth of the fire. And he is literally as well as figuratively being ridden by a warg. Anyway. Yes, this has to do with the OP and Rhaegar, I promise, hahaa. Just not sure how yet...
Did Hodor die? Or was he horribly injured like Drogo? Either way, Walys could have been the one to bring him back.
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 16:00:36 GMT
The Queenmaker chapter suggests that Lyanna was sick with red spots and that Walys was taking care of her. Merrett Frey was hit in the head with a mace IIRC and he's never been right since. He can still talk, but attempts were made to keep the witnesses to the kidnapping either dead or dumb.
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Post by min on May 12, 2016 16:56:03 GMT
Interesting. A bit of free association here... recall that Arya finds a book burned in the fire at the Dreadfort after cleaning up blood in the tub IIRC; a book that Qyburn had found and shown to Roose we presume; and the library fire at Winterfell. I've always thought that the library was targeted to destroy some dangerous tome. And did you think that Maester Luwin was cagey when it came to acknowledging that dark powers exist? Not suggesting Luwin was involved but that he knows more than he lets on or was forbidden to talk about certain subjects. Perhaps because of the circumstances around Lyanna's death or his predecessor?
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 17:07:06 GMT
I think the maesters know a lot more than they let on, and I think it's their job to educate the children and basically indoctrinate them in the "official stories".
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Post by min on May 12, 2016 17:22:01 GMT
I think the maesters know a lot more than they let on, and I think it's their job to educate the children and basically indoctrinate them in the "official stories". Is it possible that Qyburn is Walys? Maybe even Hodor's father?
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 17:23:38 GMT
I think the maesters know a lot more than they let on, and I think it's their job to educate the children and basically indoctrinate them in the "official stories". Is it possible that Qyburn is Walys? Maybe even Hodor's father? I don't know. I've never considered either prospect.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 12, 2016 18:06:52 GMT
Arya finds a book burned in the fire at the Dreadfort after cleaning up blood in the tub IIRC; a book that Qyburn had found and shown to Roose we presume; and the library fire at Winterfell. I've always thought that the library was targeted to destroy some dangerous tome. And did you think that Maester Luwin was cagey when it came to acknowledging that dark powers exist? Not suggesting Luwin was involved but that he knows more than he lets on or was forbidden to talk about certain subjects. Perhaps because of the circumstances around Lyanna's death or his predecessor? I also think the library fire was suspicious, as was the secret message Lysa sent to Luwin, and I've often suspected everything was tied together. So the fire was not just a distraction to leave Bran alone to be murdered. Not to derail the OP too much (though I'm sure Some Pig No Doubt looooooves free association!) Anyway. Luwin had a Valyrian steel link, which means he absolutely studied (and mastered enough to earn the link for) magic. And it's very strange that Walys disappears from the story and the Citadel sends the new Winterfell Maester, Luwin, to attend the new Lady Stark during her pregnancy at Riverrun. He then travels with her and Robb to Winterfell. So what happened in the meantime? Walys disappears and there is no Maester at Winterfell? No Maester for Benjen while he's there alone? No Maester to greet Ned and his bastard? So yes, I'm certain there were things Luwin knew that we don't know.
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Post by min on May 12, 2016 18:46:35 GMT
Arya finds a book burned in the fire at the Dreadfort after cleaning up blood in the tub IIRC; a book that Qyburn had found and shown to Roose we presume; and the library fire at Winterfell. I've always thought that the library was targeted to destroy some dangerous tome. And did you think that Maester Luwin was cagey when it came to acknowledging that dark powers exist? Not suggesting Luwin was involved but that he knows more than he lets on or was forbidden to talk about certain subjects. Perhaps because of the circumstances around Lyanna's death or his predecessor? I also think the library fire was suspicious, as was the secret message Lysa sent to Luwin, and I've often suspected everything was tied together. So the fire was not just a distraction to leave Bran alone to be murdered. Not to derail the OP too much (though I'm sure Some Pig No Doubt looooooves free association!) Anyway. Luwin had a Valyrian steel link, which means he absolutely studied (and mastered enough to earn the link for) magic. And it's very strange that Walys disappears from the story and the Citadel sends the new Winterfell Maester, Luwin, to attend the new Lady Stark during her pregnancy at Riverrun. He then travels with her and Robb to Winterfell. So what happened in the meantime? Walys disappears and there is no Maester at Winterfell? No Maester for Benjen while he's there alone? No Maester to greet Ned and his bastard? So yes, I'm certain there were things Luwin knew that we don't know. Just reading some of the theories on Maester Conspiracy and the Southron Ambitions associated with Walys. This comment about Walys by Lady Barbrey sticks out: Before he had forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walyn Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow... we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother...and an archmaester of the Cidatel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. "Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he -" She broke off as Roose Bolton rose to his feet, pale eyes shining in the torchlight. I've always thought that Qyburn was something of a sweet talker. Kindly old man and fatherly type, you know. Qyburn just comes out of the blue, his past is full of blank pages also. Suppose his first gig was Winterfell. I think Cersei's chapters might yield some interesting stuff.
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 19:10:58 GMT
The purpose of placing maesters in Houses is to promote the Faith of the Seven and eliminate magic. So, why did Walys guide Rickard into marrying into more southern families? Surely the marriage alliances were viewed as threats by Aerys II?
I do believe the Citadel thought highly of Tywin Lannister. He had Pycelle as his own personal cheerleader. Because of this I think the Citadel conspired to help get rid of the Targaryens and elevate a family that would best work with the Faith. Although, now Cersei is giving them some trouble, but I'm sure they appreciated the reinstatement of the Faith Militant.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 12, 2016 19:21:38 GMT
I think the maesters know a lot more than they let on, and I think it's their job to educate the children and basically indoctrinate them in the "official stories". Is it possible that Qyburn is Walys? Maybe even Hodor's father? Just spitballing a bit here...
Preston Jacobs has a theory that Qyburn is in league with Dorne. If true, and if Qyburn is in fact Maester Walys, then perhaps Maester Walys had a connection with the then Lord Commander of the Wall, Lord Commander, Qorgyle. Qorgyle was the House that fostered Oberyn Martell.
I've often wondered if perhaps Coldhands, with his black eyes, might be former Lord Commander, Qorgyle, since it seems many of the Salty dornishmen have those telltale black eyes.
There is also a separate theory that Mance Rayder is the bastard son of Lord Commander Qorgyle, which is why Qorgyle took Mance with him on his visit to Winterfell.
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Post by min on May 12, 2016 19:31:04 GMT
Is it possible that Qyburn is Walys? Maybe even Hodor's father? Just spitballing a bit here...
Preston Jacobs has a theory that Qyburn is in league with Dorne. If true, and if Qyburn is in fact Maester Walys, then perhaps Maester Walys had a connection with the then Lord Commander of the Wall, Lord Commander, Qorgyle. Qorgyle was the House that fostered Oberyn Martell.
I've often wondered if perhaps Coldhands, with his black eyes, might be former Lord Commander, Qorgyle, since it seems many of the Salty dornishmen have those telltale black eyes.
There is also a separate theory that Mance Rayder is the bastard son of Lord Commander Qorgyle, which is why Qorgyle took Mance with him on his visit to Winterfell.
Whaaaa? Who is Preston Jacobs? Is there a link? "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters only go by one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from...but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. - Lady Barbrey
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 12, 2016 19:47:42 GMT
And did you think that Maester Luwin was cagey when it came to acknowledging that dark powers exist? Not suggesting Luwin was involved but that he knows more than he lets on or was forbidden to talk about certain subjects. Perhaps because of the circumstances around Lyanna's death or his predecessor? Luwin is definitely cagey. I think he was sent there to actively discourage magic, and having a VS link on his chain would at least allow him to recognize magic should it be practiced. However, I think that he grew to genuinely like and respect the Starks and their ways, hence why he instructed Osha to bleed him by a weirwood - whatever the trees need from the blood, be it memory or sight or whatever, he wanted to make sure they got it from him. And it's very strange that Walys disappears from the story and the Citadel sends the new Winterfell Maester, Luwin, to attend the new Lady Stark during her pregnancy at Riverrun. He then travels with her and Robb to Winterfell. Right, it's almost as if he and Catelyn were being deliberately kept away from Winterfell during the war. Cat was holed up at Riverrun, right smack in the middle of the fighting, instead of being sent back to Winterfell for her pregnancy where by all accounts she would have been safe as kittens. She (and Luwin) didn't return until Ned sent for her after the war. Why? The purpose of placing maesters in Houses is to promote the Faith of the Seven and eliminate magic. So, why did Walys guide Rickard into marrying into more southern families? Because he wanted to thin the bloodline? Baratheon and Tully - any magic from the Storm and River kings is long gone (although I do have some intense doubt about Whent) for the most part. Ned and Benjen would have probably been hooked up with some vassal house - or not at all. Odd to me that 18yo Ned wasn't betrothed by the time of the tourney of HH - I suspect he was going to head for the Wall until Brandon died and that role fell to Benjen. (I still believe that there needs to be a Stark on the Wall as well as at Winterfell.)
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Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 19:57:20 GMT
Because he wanted to thin the bloodline? Baratheon and Tully - any magic from the Storm and River kings is long gone (although I do have some intense doubt about Whent) for the most part. I was thinking too to "thin the bloodline", but it also viewed as a threat by Aerys. Not very good advice...so in my clumsy question I was actually supplying evidence.
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