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Post by min on May 14, 2016 20:33:49 GMT
What if Jon is Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne's child and she turned to Ned for help? Seems Brandon and Lady Barbery had a thing, but maybe this is an indication that Brandon was a womanizer? I'm starting to think Lyanna never even had a child, that she was found with a corrupted sword wound like Drogo. Ned could have found Lyanna dying before he went to war, and then by the time he got to the tower of joy he saves Brandon's son from being sacrificed in a blood ritual meant to bring Rhaegar back to life. And since Dany survived the tent ritual and Rhaego died, Jon is the one that survived and Ashara died. GRRM really covered his bases. LOL. I'm still open to this scenario. In which case Lemore would be Haldon Half-maester's daughter Malora Hightower, the Mad Maid. Why she needs to disguise herself is a good question. And this ties Jorah Mormont in with his marriage to Lynesse. A Feast for Crows
After the ironborn attacked the Reach, Lord Leyton was reported to be locked in the Hightower consulting books of spells with the Mad Maid.[1]It would explain the cup bypassing Ned. But why on earth would Brandon Sr. rape Ashara and destroy the good will of Ser Arthur when they are entertaining a marriage contract? Did he think he could force the issue? Why would she go to Ned and not her brother? I've had a crackpot going for a while that Ramsey Bolton is Brandon's son by Lady Barbry and that this is pregnant woman that Bran sees in front of the weirwood asking for a son to give her revenge. She foists her newborn of on the Miller's Daughter knowing that Roose raped her and then this girl shows up at Ramsey's door looking for money claiming that Ramsey is his son. Roose never even questions it. He just remembers tht he raped her. What if the false Stark isn't a fake? And although Arya says that she and Jon are the only siblings who take after their father; and Cersei says she recognizes Ned in Jon; family resemblances well. How much did Ned and Brandon Sr look alike? Saying that someone is your 'blood' is a very general statement meaning if you are family you are the same blood. ETA; Given Ramsey's history off removing his half-brothers....
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Post by Melifeather on May 14, 2016 20:36:56 GMT
why on earth would Brandon Sr. rape Ashara Why would it have had to been rape? Brandon was attractive, Ashara beautiful. A seduction could have occurred after the dance at Harrenhal since Ned was too shy to even ask her to dance.
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Post by min on May 14, 2016 20:37:30 GMT
When Brandon and Rickard leave Wiinterfell for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn, I believe Maester Walys was home taking care of a sick Lyanna who stayed home with red spots. Since I suspect a conspiracy involving the Citadel, Weasel Pie has good reason to shake his fist at Walys, because I believe he sedated her and got her out of Winterfell, where she was easily taken or fallen upon or whatever you want to call it. How do you come by the information? I don't recall this tidbit at all.
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Post by min on May 14, 2016 20:38:09 GMT
why on earth would Brandon Sr. rape Ashara Why would it have had to been rape? Brandon was attractive, Ashara beautiful. A seduction could have occurred after the dance at Harrenhal since Ned was too shy to even ask her to dance. True.
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Post by Melifeather on May 14, 2016 20:54:22 GMT
When Brandon and Rickard leave Wiinterfell for Riverrun for the marriage to Catelyn, I believe Maester Walys was home taking care of a sick Lyanna who stayed home with red spots. Since I suspect a conspiracy involving the Citadel, Weasel Pie has good reason to shake his fist at Walys, because I believe he sedated her and got her out of Winterfell, where she was easily taken or fallen upon or whatever you want to call it. How do you come by the information? I don't recall this tidbit at all. I admit it's a theory based on my work on the inversion chapters The Soiled Knight and The Queenmaker.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 23:30:54 GMT
Was there anyone at Winterfell besides Benjen and few servants and retainers? Walys was gone by all accounts. The Fisherman's Daughter's story tells me that Ned was traveling as secretly as possible. Indeed, Benjen may know all about it. Recall his attempt to dissuade Jon from joining the Watch. He tells Jon that he can't possibly know what he would be giving up; what it means to love a woman and have children. Or something like it. I think he's talking about Ned. There is also Jon's dream of his mother, a noble woman and that she was kind. That sounds like a ringer for Lyanna unless you consider Lemore's kindness to Tyrion. Did Benjen go to the Wall on Ned's return? Lemore... L'amore. Yep, that whole history is murky. By all accounts Winterfell was left to Benjen, who was too young to join the war, and besides there always needs to be a Stark in Winterfell. We don't know when Benjen joined the Watch exactly, but it has to be within a few years of Ned's return, since none of the kids have any memories of growing up with him around. So if he was too young for the war, how was he old enough to join the Watch after he already knew what he would be giving up? In other words, was he telling Jon not to repeat his mistake, i.e. join before he experienced life, or is there a mistake on Martin's part here? Also, I'm sure Benjen does know who Jon's mother is, since he goes missing so soon. If, for example, Benjen had been around and available for Jon to talk to about his dreams, then what could Benjen have told him? It would give away the mystery too soon I think. And Benjen's knowing all about Jon's parentage may be a reason why he joins the Watch. Perhaps he doesn't want to watch his sister's son grow up in ignorance. Or he was opposed to the idea of Jon hiding in plain sight at Winterfell, when he by rights should've been growing up elsewhere.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 14, 2016 23:45:21 GMT
Roose never even questions it. He just remembers tht he raped her. But Roose does question it. He tells Ramsay when the miller's wife came to him with the little boy he was going to throw him down a well, because he thought she was trying to extort him, but once he saw the boy's eyes, he was convinced Ramsay was his. Both Roose and Ramsay are described in the books as having two dirty ice chips for eyes, a grey so light as to almost be colourless. Not the grey, blue/grey, and blue eyes of the Starks. Why would it have had to been rape? Brandon was attractive, Ashara beautiful. A seduction could have occurred after the dance at Harrenhal since Ned was too shy to even ask her to dance. I agree. But the child, if there was one, would have to be female. Same with any child of Lady Barbery's because Martin is on record as saying Brandon may indeed have left some little Snow's around the north, but he also said that Brandon never had any sons. Don't ask me to find the SSM because I suck at finding them, but I remember reading them when someone else brings them up.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 15, 2016 0:18:49 GMT
We don't know when Benjen joined the Watch exactly, but it has to be within a few years of Ned's return It was within a few months of Ned's return. There's a SSM on this too. He was probably just 16 or thereabouts, so basically living the same life as Jon.
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 0:27:26 GMT
Roose never even questions it. He just remembers tht he raped her. But Roose does question it. He tells Ramsay when the miller's wife came to him with the little boy he was going to throw him down a well, because he thought she was trying to extort him, but once he saw the boy's eyes, he was convinced Ramsay was his. Both Roose and Ramsay are described in the books as having two dirty ice chips for eyes, a grey so light as to almost be colourless. Not the grey, blue/grey, and blue eyes of the Starks. Yech! I didn't remember that about Ramsey just Roose at Ramsey's wedding.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 15, 2016 0:27:41 GMT
He tells Jon that he can't possibly know what he would be giving up; what it means to love a woman and have children. Or something like it. I think he's talking about Ned. I agree. And imo Ned not only had to give up a family (or dream of a family) for the sake of duty, but he ended up betrayed by or somehow misled by a certain lady, rubbing salt in the wound. Odd that given the rumors about Ned and Ashara's love affair, he bears a good bit of what seems like veiled hostility toward her. I wonder if she deceived him regarding the parentage of a child. (somewhere in this forum I have a thread about a possible romance between Rhaegar and Ashara.)
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 15, 2016 0:30:57 GMT
We don't know when Benjen joined the Watch exactly, but it has to be within a few years of Ned's return It was within a few months of Ned's return. There's a SSM on this too. He was probably just 16 or thereabouts, so basically living the same life as Jon. Thanks, I thought it was early on, but I didn't realise it was that early. So basically what Benjen tells Jon is hypocritical at worst, or speaking from experience at best. The latter begs the question -- When did Benjen ever know the love of a woman or hold his own babe in his arms then?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 15, 2016 0:38:26 GMT
When did Benjen ever know the love of a woman or hold his own babe in his arms then? Good question. Maester Aemon says something very similar, so I'm taking that to mean either someone in Benjen's immediate family had a wee one or Benjen himself was a naughty boy once at the Wall.
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 0:47:45 GMT
It was within a few months of Ned's return. There's a SSM on this too. He was probably just 16 or thereabouts, so basically living the same life as Jon. Thanks, I thought it was early on, but I didn't realise it was that early. So basically what Benjen tells Jon is hypocritical at worst, or speaking from experience at best. The latter begs the question -- When did Benjen ever know the love of a woman or hold his own babe in his arms then? He could only go by what Ned told him if he confided in him. I'm not sure how well Benjen knew Ned in their younger years since Ned was fostered out. But they seemed to be in regular contact about the business at the Wall with Benjen as liason later. Something he observed about his brother? Something he regrets?
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 1:02:32 GMT
Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna queen of love and beauty? Was it to honor her for her defense of Howland Reed?
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Post by min on May 15, 2016 9:53:05 GMT
He tells Jon that he can't possibly know what he would be giving up; what it means to love a woman and have children. Or something like it. I think he's talking about Ned. I agree. And imo Ned not only had to give up a family (or dream of a family) for the sake of duty, but he ended up betrayed by or somehow misled by a certain lady, rubbing salt in the wound. Odd that given the rumors about Ned and Ashara's love affair, he bears a good bit of what seems like veiled hostility toward her. I wonder if she deceived him regarding the parentage of a child. (somewhere in this forum I have a thread about a possible romance between Rhaegar and Ashara.) I can get on board with RAD and NAJ. It makes the Dayne bloodline more important than I would have supposed and I like the symmetry and reasoning. It does re-frame the oath of obedience scene between Ned and Catelyn and I can't bypass Jorah's statement about 'Rhaegar's sister'. That was a surprise to me. So I'm left wondering if anything occurred between Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. I think the romanticism around it starts with crowning Lyanna queen of love and beauty. I think Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna because he thought she was the knight of the laughing tree. This is a tourney after all and what better way to honor her without revealing that a woman took a place in the competition. It would be consistent with his poet's soul. So did Ashara turn to Stark because she was disappointed with Rhaegar thinking the gesture meant something else. Or was she the knight of the laughing tree who should have received the crown? If Barristan had won the tourney; he would have given Ashara the crown. So maybe he knows more about Rhaegar's motivation for the act than we think. I still think there is something to RLfA. Are we looking for a child of three (sisters). ETA: I think you can add Robert's insistence that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna in the same category as Visery's "sweet sister". He keeps reinforcing this idea over and over with Ned. A guilty mind at work, redirecting blame, covering up and maintaining a lie.
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