|
Post by alienarea on May 12, 2016 19:42:53 GMT
Yes, I know, GRRM is a genius and his characters aren't black and white and he doesn't do tropes and ... Still. Resurrection. I am not too much into religion though I was raised catholic. The resurrections of Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark paved the ground for resurrections being possible but having a price, while the 3rd resurrection just served as a loophole to get out of the Nightwatch. I would have preferred if Benjen Stark had had Jon Snow's wildling adventure and would have died at the end of ADWD. Jon could have been a Nightwatch trainee until then, not having sworn yet, and would decide to leave then. Next R+L=J. Isn't that cheesy as hell? And if you have a legendary sword which can only be wielded by someong of that house the hero must have this sword in the final battle. I'm torn on this with the tv show. They showed Arthur Dayne as a legendary fighter, Jon already had legendary fight scenes, and Thsegar Targaryen hasn't been cast AFAIK. So there is still hope they go for Lyanna and Arthur = Jon. But they dkipped the sword. Tyrion. He should have died so many times that he needs to run out of luck very soon for some realism. Daenerys Targaryen. Don't get me started. All she needs is a blue jumpsuit and a red cape. Dragongirl rules. Arya Stark. Girl assasin. Sure. ... Now you may ask why I (still) read the books. I'm a sucker for heroes and fantasy, nursed on the Iliad and the Nibelungen (Dawn is Balmung!), Rhinegold was a nice twist on that, and of course Star Wars Expanded Universe. So I'll read till the end if there is one, but I have lost faith that I will like it.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 12, 2016 20:29:55 GMT
Daenerys Targaryen. Don't get me started. All she needs is a blue jumpsuit and a red cape. Dragongirl rules. I laughed audibly. But yes, I agree that the plot is getting weaker as we go. The more detail and plotlines GRRM throws in, the more diluted it all gets. By now I expect that he's resorted to secretly trolling the internet for juicy fan theories just so he can steal some ideas and get the thing finished already. It's pretty clear he no longer feels the mad love for the story anymore.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 20:38:46 GMT
What if the plot isn't what it appears to be? Imma gonna try to condense my theories into bullet points:
1) Central to the story is the tale of Storm's End and how Durran stole Elenei, the daughter of the god of the sea and goddess of the wind. This is actually an oral "story" of how the Long Night ended. The Children took "Elenei" (magic) and warded it under a hinge.
2) The Kingswood Brotherhood was a pseudonym for the people that really kidnapped Lyanna. Lyanna was home sick with smallpox and being cared for by Maester Walys. Robert Baratheon stopped by while Rickard and Brandon were on their way to Riverrun, and with Waly's help they take Lyanna from Winterfell. Robert dresses in Rhaegar's armor and makes sure people see him with Lyanna. Lyanna actually dies of smallpox probably 10-14 days after she went missing. I don't think she was anybody's mother.
3) Ashara Dayne was not only Elia's handmaiden, she was her closest friend and surrogate mother to Aegon. The baby that was smashed at the Red Keep was a commoner's son who's mother had died in childbirth.
4) SomePig is working on a fabulous theory about how Rhaegar's body was retrieved from the Trident and brought to the tower of joy where a blood magic ritual was performed to turn him into a real dragon. Far fetched? Or is it reeeally?
5) That warded hinge I mentioned in number 1 has been reopened, causing a flipping of destinies. The Greyjoys are now Targaryens and are hoping to conquer Westeros with dragons just like Aegon did, and the Targaryen religion of the Drowned God is what causes the dead in the north to rise, harder and stronger since you can resuscitate drowned men.
6) The Citadel is working actively to control the politics of Westeros, and to eliminate all magics.
hmmm...I think there's more, but that's roughly some of the larger theories that I think are happening.
|
|
|
Post by winterbowl on May 12, 2016 22:33:00 GMT
2) The Kingswood Brotherhood was a pseudonym for the people that really kidnapped Lyanna. Lyanna was home sick with smallpox and being cared for by Maester Walys. Robert Baratheon stopped by while Rickard and Brandon were on their way to Riverrun, and with Waly's help they take Lyanna from Winterfell. Robert dresses in Rhaegar's armor and makes sure people see him with Lyanna. Lyanna actually dies of smallpox probably 10-14 days after she went missing. I don't think she was anybody's mother. What about the spattering of gore?
|
|
|
Post by winterbowl on May 12, 2016 22:35:55 GMT
Yes, I know, GRRM is a genius and his characters aren't black and white and he doesn't do tropes and ... Still. Resurrection. I am not too much into religion though I was raised catholic. The resurrections of Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark paved the ground for resurrections being possible but having a price, while the 3rd resurrection just served as a loophole to get out of the Nightwatch. I would have preferred if Benjen Stark had had Jon Snow's wildling adventure and would have died at the end of ADWD. Jon could have been a Nightwatch trainee until then, not having sworn yet, and would decide to leave then. Next R+L=J. Isn't that cheesy as hell? And if you have a legendary sword which can only be wielded by someong of that house the hero must have this sword in the final battle. I'm torn on this with the tv show. They showed Arthur Dayne as a legendary fighter, Jon already had legendary fight scenes, and Thsegar Targaryen hasn't been cast AFAIK. So there is still hope they go for Lyanna and Arthur = Jon. But they dkipped the sword. Tyrion. He should have died so many times that he needs to run out of luck very soon for some realism. Daenerys Targaryen. Don't get me started. All she needs is a blue jumpsuit and a red cape. Dragongirl rules. Arya Stark. Girl assasin. Sure. ... Now you may ask why I (still) read the books. I'm a sucker for heroes and fantasy, nursed on the Iliad and the Nibelungen (Dawn is Balmung!), Rhinegold was a nice twist on that, and of course Star Wars Expanded Universe. So I'll read till the end if there is one, but I have lost faith that I will like it. A lot of your complaints are based on stuff that isn't canon yet if it ever will be, though I agree things can really slip off the rails at this juncture if GRRM caters to the masses.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 12, 2016 22:57:12 GMT
2) The Kingswood Brotherhood was a pseudonym for the people that really kidnapped Lyanna. Lyanna was home sick with smallpox and being cared for by Maester Walys. Robert Baratheon stopped by while Rickard and Brandon were on their way to Riverrun, and with Waly's help they take Lyanna from Winterfell. Robert dresses in Rhaegar's armor and makes sure people see him with Lyanna. Lyanna actually dies of smallpox probably 10-14 days after she went missing. I don't think she was anybody's mother. What about the spattering of gore? Well...I am basing my theory on an inversion of Myrcella's failed crowing by Arianne and company. Darkstar cut off Myrcella's ear...actually IIRC the gash went down the side of her face. Something similar should have happened to Lyanna, only she ends up dying...maybe not from the sword wound, but the pox...eventually. Theon saw the "ghost" of Lyanna with the gore, but what if that was actually a memory? I admit I haven't worked out the details yet, but it's been simmering in the back of my mind.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on May 13, 2016 15:06:37 GMT
What about the spattering of gore? Theon saw the "ghost" of Lyanna with the gore, but what if that was actually a memory? It was a dream. And one borne from a guilty conscious at that. Unlike Ned's dream, one based in reality and calling on memories (altered I'm sure), Theon's dream is caused by his remorse and guilt due to his betrayal, and bloody take over of Winterfell. In the dream he just assumes the 'ghost of a girl, crowned in blue roses and covered in gore' is Lyanna. He doesn't know for sure and considering how many he's seen die recently in the wars with Robb, he can very well be mixing up real life events. Bottom line is we don't know that Lyanna ever had gore on her.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on May 13, 2016 15:12:19 GMT
Next R+L=J. Isn't that cheesy as hell? And if you have a legendary sword which can only be wielded by someong of that house the hero must have this sword in the final battle. Two different things here. RLJ is cheesy because it would make this story exactly like every other fantasy story. The sole hero whose destiny, by the blood in his veins, it is to save the world. The house sword trope is gone in this instance. Ice is now two different swords, the Targ swords are all missing, and Dawn is locked away, waiting for Dark Star to go steal it. I don't think Jon will we the next Sword of the Morning, Arthur's son or not. He needs to be worthy of it, and quite frankly, he's only a mediocre swordsman.
|
|
|
Post by min on May 13, 2016 15:35:28 GMT
Next R+L=J. Isn't that cheesy as hell? And if you have a legendary sword which can only be wielded by someong of that house the hero must have this sword in the final battle. Two different things here. RLJ is cheesy because it would make this story exactly like every other fantasy story. The sole hero whose destiny, by the blood in his veins, it is to save the world. The house sword trope is gone in this instance. Ice is now two different swords, the Targ swords are all missing, and Dawn is locked away, waiting for Dark Star to go steal it. I don't think Jon will we the next Sword of the Morning, Arthur's son or not. He needs to be worthy of it, and quite frankly, he's only a mediocre swordsman. I question whether the sword is still at Starfall or ever made it there after Arthur was slain. I'm of the opinion that the battle at the ToJ was akin to a trial by combat as matters of honor seem to be. In the book, there is a kind of ritualistic cant to the dialogue. Correct me if I'm wrong; but at tourney's, the victor keeps the sword, armor and horse. Isn't that what Robert did with Rheagar, taking his armor? In the show's version; I was struck by Dayne seeming to pass the sword to Ned when he realized he had lost. In the book, he takes it back to Ashara; but what if she tells him to take and hide it knowing it will become the center of conflict given there is no immediate male heir. If Jon is to have the sword; then it makes sense that it would be hidden in the crypts at Winterfell. Can we suppose that it is contains ice magic? What if winter is emanating from Winterfell because of the sword? I've entertained the idea that the Last Hero won the sword in a trial by combat with the Others to end the conflict and this is how the ancestors of the Daynes or the Starks acquired in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on May 13, 2016 15:47:13 GMT
I was struck by Dayne seeming to pass the sword to Ned when he realized he had lost. Good catch! That does seem symbolic.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on May 13, 2016 15:57:22 GMT
I question whether the sword is still at Starfall or ever made it there after Arthur was slain. I'm of the opinion that the battle at the ToJ was akin to a trial by combat as matters of honor seem to be. In the book, there is a kind of ritualistic cant to the dialogue. Correct me if I'm wrong; but at tourney's, the victor keeps the sword, armor and horse. Isn't that what Robert did with Rheagar, taking his armor? In the show's version; I was struck by Dayne seeming to pass the sword to Ned when he realized he had lost. You are spot on when it comes to tourneys. The winner gets to keep the loser's kit. That's why it needs to be ransomed back if they want it. I'm not sure about a trial by combat, but in any fight the winner(s) get to pick over and keep what they like from the dead. After battles in wars, the winning side picks the losing side's gear clean. Then the by standers or villagers go and pick the bodies' pockets, boots, cloaks, even teeth! etc, like crows. The ToJ, to me, was more a battle than trial by combat. So if Ned did indeed return Dawn, it shows not only his generosity, but his honour. He wouldn't keep the ancestral sword of another house, even though he's got all the right in the world to. And it serves to show how much of a arsehole Tywin is by not returning Ice when there are still Ned's children alive that should be inheriting it. Not to mention that the person who 'won' it was his grandson, not him, so he's even less right to it.
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on May 13, 2016 15:58:39 GMT
In the book, he takes it back to Ashara; but what if she tells him to take and hide it knowing it will become the center of conflict given there is no immediate male heir. If Jon is to have the sword; then it makes sense that it would be hidden in the crypts at Winterfell. Can we suppose that it is contains ice magic? What if winter is emanating from Winterfell because of the sword?Love this idea, BTW!
|
|
|
Post by min on May 13, 2016 16:01:26 GMT
I was struck by Dayne seeming to pass the sword to Ned when he realized he had lost. Good catch! That does seem symbolic. There was a sort of look of surprise on Ned's face when he looked down at the sword and then picked it up as though realizing he had been given the sword. But that could just be me layering my expectations on the scene. LOL
|
|
|
Post by min on May 13, 2016 16:04:10 GMT
I question whether the sword is still at Starfall or ever made it there after Arthur was slain. I'm of the opinion that the battle at the ToJ was akin to a trial by combat as matters of honor seem to be. In the book, there is a kind of ritualistic cant to the dialogue. Correct me if I'm wrong; but at tourney's, the victor keeps the sword, armor and horse. Isn't that what Robert did with Rheagar, taking his armor? In the show's version; I was struck by Dayne seeming to pass the sword to Ned when he realized he had lost. You are spot on when it comes to tourneys. The winner gets to keep the loser's kit. That's why it needs to be ransomed back if they want it. I'm not sure about a trial by combat, but in any fight the winner(s) get to pick over and keep what they like from the dead. After battles in wars, the winning side picks the losing side's gear clean. Then the by standers or villagers go and pick the bodies' pockets, boots, cloaks, even teeth! etc, like crows. The ToJ, to me, was more a battle than trial by combat. So if Ned did indeed return Dawn, it shows not only his generosity, but his honour. He wouldn't keep the ancestral sword of another house, even though he's got all the right in the world to. And it serves to show how much of a arsehole Tywin is by not returning Ice when there are still Ned's children alive that should be inheriting it. Not to mention that the person who 'won' it was his grandson, not him, so he's even less right to it. Is that what Howland was doing then?
|
|
|
Post by Ser Duncan on May 13, 2016 16:25:48 GMT
You are spot on when it comes to tourneys. The winner gets to keep the loser's kit. That's why it needs to be ransomed back if they want it. I'm not sure about a trial by combat, but in any fight the winner(s) get to pick over and keep what they like from the dead. After battles in wars, the winning side picks the losing side's gear clean. Then the by standers or villagers go and pick the bodies' pockets, boots, cloaks, even teeth! etc, like crows. The ToJ, to me, was more a battle than trial by combat. So if Ned did indeed return Dawn, it shows not only his generosity, but his honour. He wouldn't keep the ancestral sword of another house, even though he's got all the right in the world to. And it serves to show how much of a arsehole Tywin is by not returning Ice when there are still Ned's children alive that should be inheriting it. Not to mention that the person who 'won' it was his grandson, not him, so he's even less right to it. Is that what Howland was doing then? Yes, but usually you would not loot the bodies of your comrades. And in either case you would need the go ahead of your commanding officer/lord, which Ned does not give. So it's rather disturbing for Howland to be doing that. In a normal case, the taking of a fallen foe's things are called 'spoils of war', and that's a fair and legitimate thing.
|
|