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Post by Melifeather on May 19, 2016 19:23:25 GMT
Or it's the complete opposite without the inversion?
First Sam's route: Sam, Gilly, Mance's son, and a maester go to Eastwatch, catch a ship, go to Braavos, maester dies, Sam, Gilly and babe continue to Oldtown, then takes Gilly and Mance's son to Horn Hill, and Sam (we expect anyways) ends at Oldtown Citadel.
The reverse isn't quite the same, but a maester from the Citadel goes to Horn Hill to collect "Gilly, babe, and Sam", leaves "Mance's son" at Horn Hill, takes "Gilly and Sam" to Braavos where the maester dies, "Sam" goes to the Wall, but Gilly goes "where"? Or did "Gilly" die?
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Post by alienarea on May 19, 2016 22:09:21 GMT
I forgot the red stallion. So Ned Stark carrying Dawn, Howland Reed with Baby Jon screaming from starving, and Lyanna Starks corpse flung over a red stallion ride into Starfall [seems to happen any other day as nobody remembers this. Riiiiight]
Then Ned Stark returns Dawn to the Dayne family and boards a ship with Baby Jon, the red stallion and Lyanna Starks corpse. Apparently he sold Howland Reed for the passage because he isn't mentioned ever after.
And its a long journey back to Winterfell, still Ned Stark had returned there before Catelyn arrived with Rob.
Also: Ashara's name seems to be known in Winterfell, but nobody heard of Wylla, while Wylla is known in Dorne only.
Still, Manderly has daughters named Lyanna and Wylla. And one of them dyes her hair green. To hide a Targaryen blonde?
Did Ned Stark travel from Starfall to White Harbor?
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Post by min on May 19, 2016 22:42:43 GMT
I forgot the red stallion. So Ned Stark carrying Dawn, Howland Reed with Baby Jon screaming from starving, and Lyanna Starks corpse flung over a red stallion ride into Starfall [seems to happen any other day as nobody remembers this. Riiiiight] Exactly. This is why I think Lyanna wasn't at the ToJ but Starfall.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 19, 2016 22:46:01 GMT
Still, Manderly has daughters named Lyanna and Wylla. And one of them dyes her hair green. To hide a Targaryen blonde? Manderly has Wylla with the green hair, but MORMONT has Lyanna...who knows only one king in the north, whose name is STARK.
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Post by Melifeather on May 19, 2016 23:33:23 GMT
I forgot the red stallion. So Ned Stark carrying Dawn, Howland Reed with Baby Jon screaming from starving, and Lyanna Starks corpse flung over a red stallion ride into Starfall [seems to happen any other day as nobody remembers this. Riiiiight] Then Ned Stark returns Dawn to the Dayne family and boards a ship with Baby Jon, the red stallion and Lyanna Starks corpse. Apparently he sold Howland Reed for the passage because he isn't mentioned ever after. And its a long journey back to Winterfell, still Ned Stark had returned there before Catelyn arrived with Rob. Also: Ashara's name seems to be known in Winterfell, but nobody heard of Wylla, while Wylla is known in Dorne only. Still, Manderly has daughters named Lyanna and Wylla. And one of them dyes her hair green. To hide a Targaryen blonde? Did Ned Stark travel from Starfall to White Harbor? OR Robert stole Lyanna, but everyone thought it was Rhaegar. Dayne rescues Lyanna from fake Rhaegar (Robert), and their journey mirrors Arya and Sandor. Arthur brought Lyanna to her closest relative, which is Ned in the Vale. Upon arrival, he discovers his sister Ashara alive and well, but pregnant. She had gone to Ned for help. Arthur takes his sister, while Lyanna leaves with Ned on a ship bound for White Harbor. (the swap) Somewhere during Ned and Lyanna's trip they are attacked, and Lyanna is mortally wounded with a sword cut to her face. Ned brings her to White Harbor and stays with Lyanna while her wounds are tended, takes comfort in the arms of Wylla. While Lyanna lays dying of infected wounds, Ned promises to take her home. Ned goes home with dead Lyanna and calls his banners, then leaves for Riverrun to marry Catelyn. Leaves for the Rebellion, but learns of Wylla's pregnancy from the Manderlys. Rhaegar is killed at the Trident, but his dead body was retrieved from the river. His body was found in the river by a wood's witch and some Children. Arthur and Ashara stumble upon the cave where the woods witch and Children are, see Rhaegar's dead body and travels with them. They bring the body through the massive underground tunnels to the tower of joy. Ashara gives birth at the tower, and then a fire and blood ritual was performed to resurrect Rhaegar. Ashara Dayne sacrifices herself just as Nissa Nissa was said to have done. The wood's witch helps a resurrected Rhaegar take Ashara's baby to Horn Hill where he's fostered and renamed Sam Tarly. heh Then the wood's witch leads Rhaegar through the underground tunnels aaall the way to the Wall, where he wears a glamour and is called Mance. The blood and fire ritual caused the wheel of time to go in reverse causing Ned to have false memories that combined ice maiden Lyanna's and fire maiden Ashara's deaths.
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Post by alienarea on May 20, 2016 5:54:23 GMT
Still, Manderly has daughters named Lyanna and Wylla. And one of them dyes her hair green. To hide a Targaryen blonde? Manderly has Wylla with the green hair, but MORMONT has Lyanna...who knows only one king in the north, whose name is STARK. You're right, long time since I read those. But it doesn't matter too much, does it? The only places in the North were the names Lyanna and Wylla resurface are a harbor and an island. Because Ned went there from Starfall?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 20, 2016 12:15:29 GMT
So Ned Stark carrying Dawn, Howland Reed with Baby Jon screaming from starving, and Lyanna Starks corpse flung over a red stallion ride into Starfall [seems to happen any other day as nobody remembers this. Riiiiight] and, literally, Dany Robert stole Lyanna, but everyone thought it was Rhaegar. I've been pondering this, and certainly a motivation for Robert to take and hide Lyanna would be to keep her from someone else (Rhaegar?). Was there something else going on with marriage alliances that we don't know about? I can't help but wonder about First Night, and how prevalent that still might have been in the North because although it was "outlawed" it was still practiced, by the Bolton's for certain. Was Lyanna running from First Night? Was Robert trying to save her from it? Did the Starks practice First Night? Was Walys encouraging Rickard to restart the practice?
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Post by min on May 20, 2016 12:38:44 GMT
So Ned Stark carrying Dawn, Howland Reed with Baby Jon screaming from starving, and Lyanna Starks corpse flung over a red stallion ride into Starfall [seems to happen any other day as nobody remembers this. Riiiiight] and, literally, Dany Robert stole Lyanna, but everyone thought it was Rhaegar. I've been pondering this, and certainly a motivation for Robert to take and hide Lyanna would be to keep her from someone else (Rhaegar?). Was there something else going on with marriage alliances that we don't know about? I can't help but wonder about First Night, and how prevalent that still might have been in the North because although it was "outlawed" it was still practiced, by the Bolton's for certain. Was Lyanna running from First Night? Was Robert trying to save her from it? Did the Starks practice First Night? Was Walys encouraging Rickard to restart the practice? There could be something to this. I think that's a stronger argument for one or more kidnappings and Robert's claim against Rhaegar.
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Post by Melifeather on May 20, 2016 14:19:48 GMT
I've been pondering this, and certainly a motivation for Robert to take and hide Lyanna would be to keep her from someone else (Rhaegar?). Was there something else going on with marriage alliances that we don't know about? This would be a more honorable twist, and maybe Cersei played up the whole Queen of Love and Beauty angle to create jealousy, but I still think this was Cersei and Tywin's plot to remove Lyanna from the marriage agreement.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 20, 2016 14:32:56 GMT
This would be a more honorable twist What would be the "dishonorable" reason for Robert stealing away Lyanna? They were already betrothed.
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Post by Melifeather on May 20, 2016 14:37:42 GMT
This would be a more honorable twist What would be the "dishonorable" reason for Robert stealing away Lyanna? They were already betrothed. That he posed as Rhaegar in Rhaegar's armor. Even Lyanna thought it was Rhaegar. And Robert knew the Lannisters planned to kill her.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 20, 2016 14:59:42 GMT
While Lyanna lays dying of infected wounds, Ned promises to take her home. Ned goes home with dead Lyanna and calls his banners, then leaves for Riverrun to marry Catelyn. And then Ned hid the fact that Lyanna was already dead for the better part of a year? The only reason Robert and Ned made up after their falling out about the deaths of Rhaella and Aegon was over their shared grief at Lyanna's death. I can't see Ned playing Robert like that. No Lyanna had to survive whatever happened to her, because the story of Howland and others finding Ned with her is real in Ned's memories, he wouldn't lie to himself. Howland was not with Ned at the Ayrie (or however you spell it.)
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Post by Melifeather on May 20, 2016 15:05:19 GMT
While Lyanna lays dying of infected wounds, Ned promises to take her home. Ned goes home with dead Lyanna and calls his banners, then leaves for Riverrun to marry Catelyn. And then Ned hid the fact that Lyanna was already dead for the better part of a year? The only reason Robert and Ned made up after their falling out about the deaths of Rhaella and Aegon was over their shared grief at Lyanna's death. I can't see Ned playing Robert like that. No Lyanna had to survive whatever happened to her, because the story of Howland and others finding Ned with her is real in Ned's memories, he wouldn't lie to himself. Howland was not with Ned at the Ayrie (or however you spell it.) I never said he hid that information from him, and Ned very plainly says to Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident. He's acknowledging that they both knew she was already dead by that point.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 20, 2016 15:16:31 GMT
I never said he hid that information from him, and Ned very plainly says to Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident. He's acknowledging that they both knew she was already dead by that point. I know you didn't say he hid the info, but for the story to make sense, Ned would have to discover Lyanna's death at the right time. If they went to war knowing Lyanna was dead, then why use her death as reason for the two to make up after their falling out? Makes no sense. Plus, Ned has very specific memories of Howland being there at the moment of Lyanna's death, and the only time we hear mention of Howland is at the end of the war, not before or even during. Yes Ned tells Robert he avenged Lyanna at the Trident, and Robert's answer is telling. He says he kills him over and over again in his dreams, he wishes he could kill him again because at the time he killed Rhaegar he still had hopes of finding Lyanna alive. Robert only avenged what happened to Lyanna while in Rhaegar's supposed custody, not avenging her death.
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Post by Melifeather on May 20, 2016 15:39:34 GMT
I never said he hid that information from him, and Ned very plainly says to Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident. He's acknowledging that they both knew she was already dead by that point. I know you didn't say he hid the info, but for the story to make sense, Ned would have to discover Lyanna's death at the right time. If they went to war knowing Lyanna was dead, then why use her death as reason for the two to make up after their falling out? Makes no sense. Plus, Ned has very specific memories of Howland being there at the moment of Lyanna's death, and the only time we hear mention of Howland is at the end of the war, not before or even during. Yes Ned tells Robert he avenged Lyanna at the Trident, and Robert's answer is telling. He says he kills him over and over again in his dreams, he wishes he could kill him again because at the time he killed Rhaegar he still had hopes of finding Lyanna alive. Robert only avenged what happened to Lyanna while in Rhaegar's supposed custody, not avenging her death. When Ned catches up to Robert at the Trident, Rhaegar is already dead and that would be when Ned tells Robert that Lyanna is dead. Prior to this time we had discussed a possible route for Lyanna which included Arthur Dayne rescuing her from "Rhaegar". He takes her to her nearest relative, which is Ned in the Vale. We hadn't considered Howland in this process, but we do need to include him and I think it would be plausible to say that Ned called his banners from White Harbor. Logistically it makes sense that he wouldn't want to wait until he got all the way to Winterfell to call his banners, and the Manderlys would have ravens. I'm thinking Ned stayed there with an injured Lyanna until she died of her wounds, which could have taken some time. Howland then would have answered the call and traveled there. Going all the way to Winterfell would have been too time consuming.
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