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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 21:33:30 GMT
I'm not even sure where he was in the end, because it was Hodor alone holding the door, not Bran in Hodor. No Bran was in Hodor, hence the continual Hold the door that Walder keeps repeating; it's Bran's thought while in Hodor. At least that's how I saw the scene. As far as I understand it, you can't skinchange someone and give an order, then step out of the body, and expect what you told the person/animal to be followed like it was a command he can't break, or some impulse that's undeniable. Skinchanging just doesn't work that way. Therefore, Bran has to be skinchanging present day Hodor the whole time, or else Hodor would completely crumple, and rock back and forth as he was doing when Bran took him over to begin with. I'm not convinced it definitely was Bran controlling Hodor. Could easily have been Bloodraven (or someone else). The 2 big "reveals" in this episode seem a little too clean-cut to me.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 21:50:36 GMT
Are you sure it wasn't an accident? Bran was watching Hodor during the attack in the cave when Meera was trying to wake him up. Bloodraven says to answer her or something to that effect, but he looks at Hodor in the past and maybe he accidently wargs him in the past? Yes, I think it was an accident. Bran reached for Hodor in the present and snagged Walder in the past, because Bran's consciousness was in the past at the time Meera and BR asked for help. But one doesn't exclude the other. He still has to remain in Hodor so that he and Meera can make good their escape. I don't think Bran could've let go of one (Walder) and not lost his hold on the other (Hodor), it's a horrible situation to be caught in.
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Post by snowfyre on May 24, 2016 22:02:17 GMT
Bran reached for Hodor in the present and snagged Walder in the past, because Bran's consciousness was in the past at the time Meera and BR asked for help. But one doesn't exclude the other. He still has to remain in Hodor so that he and Meera can make good their escape. Also, he has to give young Walder (Wylis?) seizures and brain damage, resulting in some kind of aphasia.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 24, 2016 22:30:39 GMT
One thing that I'm a bit confused about on the show. It seems like Three eye Raven is taking Bran around the past and showing him a bunch of different things for whatever reason, perhaps just exercising his third eye muscle. So the last place 3 eye takes Bran is an allegedly old scene where the COTF are creating White Walkers. Bran then wakes up, and later decides he wants to go back to the Weirwood, but he can't wake 3 eye up to get a tour. So he crawls across the room to grab a root (even though roots are all around him). And then he pops back to Winterfell. Now, am I suppose to conclude that Bran took himself back to Winterfell just to get another look at his family? Was there a particular root that he had to grab to get to Winterfell? When, at some point 3 eye raven joins him, is he just trying to get Bran to wake up? Or is there something else significant about that scene? I too wonder why Bran and the 3 eyed raven are chilling in Winterfell after they know that Bran has to leave the cave because the WWs will be there soon. I know for the Hold the Door scene, the Winterfell visit had to come after, so... IDK. It doesn't make sense to go for one more history lesson with the impending doom at the doorstep. Does Not-BR know what has happened with Hodor and if so, was it Bran or Not-BR who made it so.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 23:20:02 GMT
Bran reached for Hodor in the present and snagged Walder in the past, because Bran's consciousness was in the past at the time Meera and BR asked for help. But one doesn't exclude the other. He still has to remain in Hodor so that he and Meera can make good their escape. Also, he has to give young Walder (Wylis?) seizures and brain damage, resulting in some kind of aphasia. That too, Bran needs to close the loop on the time travelling business. However, I'm not entirely convinced Bran could've made Walder* into Hodor, if the circumstances weren't such as they were. In other words, I'm not sure it was intentional on Bran's part to cause the kind of damage he did. *Willas, Willis, Wylas, Wyllas,
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 23:30:44 GMT
However, I'm not entirely convinced Bran could've made Walder* into Hodor, if the circumstances weren't such as they were. In other words, I'm not sure it was intentional on Bran's part to cause the kind of damage he did. Yet Bran had to make Willas into Hodor. Because that's what happened. The ink was dry. Willas was made into Hodor because of Bran... before Bran was even born.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 25, 2016 0:34:30 GMT
Add to that their mutually uncanny ability to shatter White Walkers at a single blow, and it just seems likely, doesn't it? I'm glad you brought this up. How did Meera take down the white walker/Other? Did I miss something or... I know you don't watch the show - just throwing it out there.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 0:43:04 GMT
How did Meera take down the white walker a spear with an obsidian arrowhead - possibly one of the ones that Sam gave her
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 25, 2016 0:45:24 GMT
How did Meera take down the white walker a spear with an obsidian arrowhead - possibly one of the ones that Sam gave her Ah. Thanks!
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 0:51:23 GMT
What's strange about that is that the CotF didn't use one from what I saw... uselessly stabbed him right in the armor regardless. Meera got a shoulder or neck.
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Post by Maester Flagons on May 25, 2016 1:15:08 GMT
Generalization, a thought and a question So, show Others are created and killed by obsidian. Or something similar, like Valyrian steel. The incendiary grenades that the children use glow blue to "power up." Once the ward was broken on the caves, the children hurled fireballs and made a wall of fire to keep the wights out. (I get the white walkers extinguishing the flames. Like book wildlings having their fires smothered by the cold) Anyway, the adaptaion is showing the children use nature, or earth, in whatever means necessary: ice or fire etc. Saying all that to say this - I have wondered if the ward on the cave was fire based. Makes sense to use fire to ward off the cold. Is the wall actually frozen fire?
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Post by snowfyre on May 25, 2016 2:01:51 GMT
So, show Others are created and killed by obsidian. Or something similar, like Valyrian steel. Eh. Not sure about that. The Night King was created by obsidian. White Walkers are created by his nasty, gross-looking fingernail. Obsidian or Valyrian steel appear to kill the Walkers.
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Post by Melifeather on May 25, 2016 2:37:56 GMT
Is the wall actually frozen fire? If not frozen fire, fire warding or fire magic to counter the ice magic. Yet Bran had to make Willas into Hodor. Because that's what happened. The ink was dry. Willas was made into Hodor because of Bran... before Bran was even born. It is a loop. If Walder is "Hodor", because Bran warged him in the past, then he had already been there before...so this should be proof of the time travel and that Bran did a "do-over" of something and is hoping for a different outcome the second time around. Maybe somebody else died the first time, so the price of the do-over was Hodoring Walder and saving somebody else...and (in my mind) it makes sense that he saved Meera. Pay no attention to the striked text. I wasn't thinking straight!
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 25, 2016 3:07:30 GMT
It is a loop. If Walder is "Hodor", because Bran warged him in the past, then he had already been there before...so this should be proof of the time travel and that Bran did a "do-over" of something and is hoping for a different outcome the second time around. Maybe somebody else died the first time, so the price of the do-over was Hodoring Walder and saving somebody else...and (in my mind) it makes sense that he saved Meera. Pay no attention to the striked text. I wasn't thinking straight! Can anyone? The causality of time travel is mind boggling. That's the paradox. One can not exist without the other, but the other can not exist were it not for the one.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 25, 2016 3:16:11 GMT
Yet Bran had to make Willas into Hodor. Because that's what happened. The ink was dry. Willas was made into Hodor because of Bran... before Bran was even born. That's what I was saying, Bran has to close the loop. If he doesn't then there is no Hodor. And if there was no Hodor in the present, then there would be no way for Bran to turn Walder into Hodor in the past. But I don't think he initiated the sequence of events purposefully. He has to carry through with it once initiated, that's why I said upthread that he can't let go of one without losing the other. If lets Walder off the hook, then there is no Hodor. If he doesn't stay in Hodor, then not only do they all die, but Walder doesn't become Hodor because Walder won't have experienced his own death.
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