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Post by alienarea on May 25, 2016 7:23:32 GMT
This is maybe not the right thread for this, and though it was an emotional episode I don't like it at all. I have had the feeling that GRRM has written a couple of iconic scenes, short stories and characters and is connecting those with "magic" into an epos. That explains why timelines and distances hardly fit. He got away with unreliable narrators and characters making dumb decisions and claiming it to be realistic storytelling, but when you need time travel and magic to tell and save your plot it is maybe not worth telling?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 10:04:59 GMT
Yet Bran had to make Willas into Hodor. Because that's what happened. The ink was dry. Willas was made into Hodor because of Bran... before Bran was even born. That's what I was saying, Bran has to close the loop. If he doesn't then there is no Hodor. And if there was no Hodor in the present, then there would be no way for Bran to turn Walder into Hodor in the past. But I don't think he initiated the sequence of events purposefully. He has to carry through with it once initiated, that's why I said upthread that he can't let go of one without losing the other. If lets Walder off the hook, then there is no Hodor. If he doesn't stay in Hodor, then not only do they all die, but Walder doesn't become Hodor because Walder won't have experienced his own death. well-stated!
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Post by Melifeather on May 25, 2016 10:33:38 GMT
Or Bran could have witnessed himself warging Walder into Hodor in the past? It's like the Back to the Future 2 movie where Dr Emmett Brown sees himself setting up the wiring.
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Post by Melifeather on May 25, 2016 12:02:01 GMT
Do you suppose when Bloodraven exclaimed that the Night's King "touched" Bran that he meant he slipped into his skin like a skinchanger? Because that's the phrasing that's used when Bran slips into Summer or Hodor...he reaches out to touch them.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 12:36:32 GMT
@*^#(*&%@ George.
Bran "met" Brynden before Brynden became the 3EC/R. Goddamnit. Bran is why/how Brynden became enforested in the first place. Brynden and Brandon for god's sake old Turtle.
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Post by snowfyre on May 25, 2016 12:45:19 GMT
Bran "met" Brynden before Brynden became the 3EC/R. Goddamnit. Bran is why/how Brynden became enforested in the first place. Brynden and Brandon for god's sake old Turtle. Please to explain?
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 12:48:21 GMT
Bran "met" Brynden before Brynden became the 3EC/R. Goddamnit. Bran is why/how Brynden became enforested in the first place. Brynden and Brandon for god's sake old Turtle. Please to explain? I don't know anymore my own beloved theory is freaking me out. Because if Bran can travel to any place and time - and obviously has, the existence of Hodor proves that he has already travelled into the past and affected things - then why wouldn't he travel to Brynden Rivers past? I mean... why wouldn't he? Because of course he would.
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Post by snowfyre on May 25, 2016 13:08:24 GMT
I don't know anymore my own beloved theory is freaking me out. Because if Bran can travel to any place and time - and obviously has... then why wouldn't he... Well, yeah. It is rather infinite in scope, when you get right down to it - which (in my opinion) makes it dangerous ground. I mean, sure the ratings have been through the roof this week... but now minds are being blown. Benioff and Weiss will be held responsible for that, sooner or later.
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Post by snowfyre on May 25, 2016 13:18:17 GMT
I read an interview where the show runners claim that Martin revealed to them that this was the origin of Hodor's name. I honestly hope that isn't true Supporting my assumption that the story behind "Hodor" (the name) will be handled quite differently by Martin himself... we have this report from Vanity Fair: Assuming it's accurate, this does not surprise me at all. Among other reasons, because I don't think Martin is really doing time-travel in the books... I think Bran's weir-visions are just what we're told they are: memories and history, to the extent he sees what's past. Also, because the less-emphasized portion of what Benioff and Weiss said went like this: " In the abstract, in some way" are not words to be associated with canon, in ASOIAF fandom. So breathe freely, folks. Spoiler averted!
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 25, 2016 13:34:00 GMT
memories and history, to the extent he sees what's past. Hmm, not so sure about that. I know it's an unsavory notion to many, but the clues are there. We do, after all, have Ned "hearing" Bran by the heart tree. That's in the book, not in D&D's headcanon. Also, I've been trying to explain. They are memories and history already. Bran was already there.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 25, 2016 13:38:42 GMT
I admit to being biased due to my own heretical research, but I absolutely believe with 100% certainty that George will indeed include time travel - even if it's only in some kind of astral/metaphysical form - in this series. I mean, not only is he a sci-fi guy at heart, but one of his greatest sources of inspiration (Marvel comics, of course) is FULL of it. Dr. Strange in particular is known for it, and we're already seeing Bran's arc play out like that of the Good Doctor (hiding out in a cave building his powers, being attacked by a zombiefied "enemy", his mentor sacrificing himself in order for the student to ascend to power, etc). I am quite confident that the temporal paradox situation will appear in the books.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 25, 2016 15:12:04 GMT
@*^#(*&%@ George. Bran "met" Brynden before Brynden became the 3EC/R. Goddamnit. Bran is why/how Brynden became enforested in the first place. Brynden and Brandon for god's sake old Turtle. Yes, I've been suspecting the same thing since watching this week's episode. Once Bran realises that he can be heard in the past and that his physical body can skinchange in two places at once, then all that's needed is for the physical Bran to be within mind touching distance of someone who still exists in his present. Also, I've been trying to explain. They are memories and history already. Bran was already there. I know it's hard to explain. I've been trying and failing most of the week myself. The problem is the paradox and the way we think of time as strictly linear. You have to step away and realise even though Bran may be seeing something for the first and only time (as in the case of Walder/Hodor) that doesn't mean he's not been there in the past. The present proves the past, because the past is in Bran's present and future. (and I just gave everyone a head ache with that sentence)
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Post by snowfyre on May 25, 2016 15:23:57 GMT
I know it's an unsavory notion to many, but the clues are there. We do, after all, have Ned "hearing" Bran by the heart tree. That's in the book, not in D&D's headcanon. I admit to being biased due to my own heretical research, but I absolutely believe with 100% certainty that George will indeed include time travel - even if it's only in some kind of astral/metaphysical form - in this series. Not unsavory, and we all have our biases. Certainly there are events in the books that seem suggestive. I just think George is taking a different road. Benioff and Weiss could make the time travel thing work, though. And, as Jon said to Arya... different roads can lead to the same finale. Or something like that.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 25, 2016 15:44:12 GMT
Or Bran could have witnessed himself warging Walder into Hodor in the past? There is no 'or' about it. Bran is witnessing himself warging Walder into Hodor, in the past. What I think folks are getting hung up here is that Bran is in two places. He's physically, in the present day skinchanging both Walder and Hodor. At the same time he is in the past, seeing how Walder became Hodor.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 25, 2016 16:23:47 GMT
I read an interview where the show runners claim that Martin revealed to them that this was the origin of Hodor's name. I honestly hope that isn't true Supporting my assumption that the story behind "Hodor" (the name) will be handled quite differently by Martin himself... we have this report from Vanity Fair: Assuming it's accurate, this does not surprise me at all. Among other reasons, because I don't think Martin is really doing time-travel in the books... I think Bran's weir-visions are just what we're told they are: memories and history, to the extent he sees what's past. Also, because the less-emphasized portion of what Benioff and Weiss said went like this: " In the abstract, in some way" are not words to be associated with canon, in ASOIAF fandom. So breathe freely, folks. Spoiler averted! Still shaking my head a bit that Hodor is short for hold the door. Ah well, maybe it ties in a bit with the excellent discussion on the hinges of the world. If it is a literal door, then my guess is it may have to do with the door to the crypts of Winterfell, since Hodor was so weirded out over his time in the crypts.
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