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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 14:13:18 GMT
At least on that thread the interpretation was that Bran would be changing the past by planting ideas in people's heads I don't see it that way at all. More like, Bran has already created the past that we've heard so much about. He's reliving the stories. Sorry if I misunderstood. But how do you think he created the past?
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Post by snowfyre on May 24, 2016 14:38:41 GMT
My theory on this has always been that the Others show up as an unexpected side-effect of magic used by the CotF to fight against the FM. I think this theory can jive with what we saw in the show and also fit the timeline slowfyre (ghost chorus) mentions. Sounds like a fairly common approach - I've read similar stuff over the years. Even posted a few things up that alley myself. But in general, at this point, I think the show and the books have taken such different directions that attempting to reconcile the two may not be terribly useful. In fact, the main reason I don't watch the show (except, this week, in clips)... boils down to this. At a certain level, medium is story, and Benioff and Weiss aren't particularly helpful for discerning what's going on in the books. So, because most of us - including myself - have a hard time keeping the two versions separate, I decided just to focus on the one. For the most part. Though clearly I'm entertained by recent turns taken on the small screen.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 24, 2016 16:24:57 GMT
One thing that I'm a bit confused about on the show. It seems like Three eye Raven is taking Bran around the past and showing him a bunch of different things for whatever reason, perhaps just exercising his third eye muscle.
So the last place 3 eye takes Bran is an allegedly old scene where the COTF are creating White Walkers. Bran then wakes up, and later decides he wants to go back to the Weirwood, but he can't wake 3 eye up to get a tour. So he crawls across the room to grab a root (even though roots are all around him). And then he pops back to Winterfell.
Now, am I suppose to conclude that Bran took himself back to Winterfell just to get another look at his family? Was there a particular root that he had to grab to get to Winterfell? When, at some point 3 eye raven joins him, is he just trying to get Bran to wake up? Or is there something else significant about that scene?
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 17:26:38 GMT
Tuccu on Heresy branch office said this: Joseph Mawle is back to the show in the next episode according to IMDB. So either Benjen saves the day or they merged the characters of Benjen and Coldhands. LINK
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 17:28:45 GMT
So he crawls across the room to grab a root (even though roots are all around him). And then he pops back to Winterfell. No I think you're confusing this for the final scene. When Bran crawls over to that particular root, it's the root he was previously using with BR to see the creation of the first Other. What I think happens there is Bran actually goes to that place again, either during the first time the Other's attacked or he managed to go there in real time, as in what he sees is what is happening at the moment and that's how the NK sees him, and ultimately could touch him. Now, am I suppose to conclude that Bran took himself back to Winterfell just to get another look at his family? Was there a particular root that he had to grab to get to Winterfell? When, at some point 3 eye raven joins him, is he just trying to get Bran to wake up? Or is there something else significant about that scene? This is what puzzled me as well. Not that Bran went back there of his own accord, but why BR took him back there to this particular moment in time, and without Bran touching the weirwood at all. The conclusion I drew from it was BR is ensuring Walder becomes Hodor. If Walder doesn't become Hodor, then Bran and Meera die in that cave along with BR. I know this opens up a paradox, but like all time travel, the fulfilling of the past also closed the loop. If you follow what I'm saying. And let me just say this once again. Why in the seven hells did Bran need to travel all the way to that cave in the first place? If all he had to do was pitch up next to a weirwood root and experience whatever it is that BR wants him to see, he could've done that from the relative comfort of the Winterfell heart tree (from the crypts of course). Or any bleeding weirwood for that matter. On his journey there, he gets visions sent to him from BR when he touches a random weirwood, so FFS why go north of the Wall? It's just makes no sense in ShowVerse. At least in the books it's necessary for Bran to be wed to the trees and BR is teaching more than how to surf the weirnet. Sheesh!
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 17:36:36 GMT
Tuccu on Heresy branch office said this: Joseph Mawle is back to the show in the next episode according to IMDB. So either Benjen saves the day or they merged the characters of Benjen and Coldhands. LINKThing is, you can't always rely on this type of info. I'm inclined to believe it this time though, since we had that scene of Meera and Bran being in trouble again in the preview. And I did predict it a few pages back, heh, not that I think I must be right.
I will say this though, if they do make Benjen into Coldhands, then they've really no idea what Martin is doing, and just making fanfiction based off readers theories.
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 17:56:32 GMT
Tuccu on Heresy branch office said this: Joseph Mawle is back to the show in the next episode according to IMDB. So either Benjen saves the day or they merged the characters of Benjen and Coldhands. LINKThing is, you can't always rely on this type of info. I'm inclined to believe it this time though, since we had that scene of Meera and Bran being in trouble again in the preview. And I did predict it a few pages back, heh, not that I think I must be right.
I will say this though, if they do make Benjen into Coldhands, then they've really no idea what Martin is doing, and just making fanfiction based off readers theories. I'd rather he shows up to save the day.
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 24, 2016 18:17:59 GMT
So he crawls across the room to grab a root (even though roots are all around him). And then he pops back to Winterfell. No I think you're confusing this for the final scene. When Bran crawls over to that particular root, it's the root he was previously using with BR to see the creation of the first Other. What I think happens there is Bran actually goes to that place again, either during the first time the Other's attacked or he managed to go there in real time, as in what he sees is what is happening at the moment and that's how the NK sees him, and ultimately could touch him. Now, am I suppose to conclude that Bran took himself back to Winterfell just to get another look at his family? Was there a particular root that he had to grab to get to Winterfell? When, at some point 3 eye raven joins him, is he just trying to get Bran to wake up? Or is there something else significant about that scene? This is what puzzled me as well. Not that Bran went back there of his own accord, but why BR took him back there to this particular moment in time, and without Bran touching the weirwood at all. The conclusion I drew from it was BR is ensuring Walder becomes Hodor. If Walder doesn't become Hodor, then Bran and Meera die in that cave along with BR. I know this opens up a paradox, but like all time travel, the fulfilling of the past also closed the loop. If you follow what I'm saying. And let me just say this once again. Why in the seven hells did Bran need to travel all the way to that cave in the first place? If all he had to do was pitch up next to a weirwood root and experience whatever it is that BR wants him to see, he could've done that from the relative comfort of the Winterfell heart tree (from the crypts of course). Or any bleeding weirwood for that matter. On his journey there, he gets visions sent to him from BR when he touches a random weirwood, so FFS why go north of the Wall? It's just makes no sense in ShowVerse. At least in the books it's necessary for Bran to be wed to the trees and BR is teaching more than how to surf the weirnet. Sheesh! Ok, I guess I did jumble that up a bit.
Wouldn't it have been easier just to have woken Bran up, and had him warg Hodor in the present time, as opposed to having him warg Hodor in the past, to control present day Hodor? It seems the only thing that really accomplished was to ensure that Hodor would say Hodor for the rest of his life. And while that has given us much entertainment value, I don't see that as a real benefit for the "upcoming wars".
And they still haven't explained why it was necessary to bring Bran to the toj, other than to make the R + L crowd geek out.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 18:22:19 GMT
Wouldn't it have been easier just to have woken Bran up, and had him warg Hodor in the present time, as opposed to having him warg Hodor in the past, to control present day Hodor? Meera couldn't rouse him. Actually Bran is never conscious during the whole scene in the cave and fleeing the cave. I'm not even sure where he was in the end, because it was Hodor alone holding the door, not Bran in Hodor. (Also Hodor could still be alive, or come back as a wight, hehee - /random).
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Post by freyfamilyreunion on May 24, 2016 18:30:53 GMT
I guess I need to rewatch that last part. As an aside, did anyone notice how closely the facial features of the Night's King resembled Bran? My guess is for some absurd reason we're going to find out that the Night's King is in reality future Bran gone into the past, or some other such nonsense.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 24, 2016 18:38:28 GMT
how closely the facial features of the Night's King resembled Bran I thought the same, absolutely! how do you think he created the past? A reader lives a thousand lives, the ink is dry, all of that. If time is the wheel we suspect it is, Bran will do things in the past because... that's how they were done. For example (crackpot) he'll give the laurel to Lyanna because the story is that Lyanna got the laurel. So I don't see him going back to change things from how we know them to be. I think he's already gone back and created the current past. Hopefully that makes sense.
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 24, 2016 18:42:31 GMT
I'm not even sure where he was in the end, because it was Hodor alone holding the door, not Bran in Hodor. No Bran was in Hodor, hence the continual Hold the door that Walder keeps repeating; it's Bran's thought while in Hodor. At least that's how I saw the scene. As far as I understand it, you can't skinchange someone and give an order, then step out of the body, and expect what you told the person/animal to be followed like it was a command he can't break, or some impulse that's undeniable. Skinchanging just doesn't work that way. Therefore, Bran has to be skinchanging present day Hodor the whole time, or else Hodor would completely crumple, and rock back and forth as he was doing when Bran took him over to begin with.
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Post by Melifeather on May 24, 2016 20:48:21 GMT
Are you sure it wasn't an accident?
Bran was watching Hodor during the attack in the cave when Meera was trying to wake him up. Bloodraven says to answer her or something to that effect, but he looks at Hodor in the past and maybe he accidently wargs him in the past?
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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 21:15:29 GMT
A reader lives a thousand lives, the ink is dry, all of that. If time is the wheel we suspect it is, Bran will do things in the past because... that's how they were done. For example (crackpot) he'll give the laurel to Lyanna because the story is that Lyanna got the laurel. So I don't see him going back to change things from how we know them to be. I think he's already gone back and created the current past. Hopefully that makes sense. Afraid not. This theory is clearly over my head . Thanks for trying to explain though!
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Post by ac on May 24, 2016 21:26:23 GMT
My theory on this has always been that the Others show up as an unexpected side-effect of magic used by the CotF to fight against the FM. I think this theory can jive with what we saw in the show and also fit the timeline slowfyre (ghost chorus) mentions. Sounds like a fairly common approach - I've read similar stuff over the years. Even posted a few things up that alley myself. But in general, at this point, I think the show and the books have taken such different directions that attempting to reconcile the two may not be terribly useful. In fact, the main reason I don't watch the show (except, this week, in clips)... boils down to this. At a certain level, medium is story, and Benioff and Weiss aren't particularly helpful for discerning what's going on in the books. So, because most of us - including myself - have a hard time keeping the two versions separate, I decided just to focus on the one. For the most part. Though clearly I'm entertained by recent turns taken on the small screen. Who knows how different the two will end up being. Either way, that is my theory for the Others origin whether in the books or the show .
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