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Post by Ser Duncan on May 31, 2016 3:02:50 GMT
It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shriveled in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its salt king and its rock king. Let the old way return. First, wasn't there a previous passage where Victarion had looked and acted like it was blasphemous for Asha and he to be wed? I thought the Ironborn, like the First Men and the Andals all frowned upon incest. Second, what does he mean by let them rule together? How does that make up the salt king and the rock king combo, when Asha would not be a rock queen, since she sails just as much as any of them. Would they both be rock king and queen? Or salt king and queen?
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Post by Ser Duncan on May 31, 2016 3:03:38 GMT
Jon's crypt dreams - the Kings of Winter.
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Post by Melifeather on May 31, 2016 12:11:03 GMT
I'm going to dump some thoughts that I also posted on Heresy here that are related to The Foresaken chapter....
If you want to figure out what Euron's intensions are in this chapter, you can get an idea by looking for parallels to Bloodraven and his attendants the Children, and view Victarion as reliving Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers. If Dany is the Mother of Dragons and Aegon the Conqueror, then Euron and Victarion are a type of Sixth Blackfyre Rebellion, except everything will be reversed and "Bloodraven" has joined forces with "Bittersteel".
Daemon III and Bittersteel crossed the Narrow Sea from the east for the 4th Blackfyre Rebellion and landed on Massey's Hook which protects the Blackwater river on the east side of Westeros, but are ultimately defeated by Aegon V and his sons. Aegon V is the one that sent Bloodraven to the Wall, but he succeeds in putting down the Blackfyres seemingly without Bloodraven's help. Or did he?
The reverse is Victarion (Bittersteel) landing on the Shield Islands which protect the Mander river on the west side of Westeros. Euron takes a fleet west across the Sunset Sea to bring the "Blackfyre rebellion" to Daenerys Targaryen. As impossible as it may seem, this time the "Blackfyres" will succeed in defeating OR joining forces with the Targaryens, and this time they will have the dragons. They say the Golden Company has broken their contract...did they? Are they pretending to be on Dany's side, or are they really on Euron's side? The Golden Company has always supported the Blackfyre cause, so I think we will see a betrayal...the one for gold. Finally, I expect Euron to attack Westeros from the west since the Iron Islands are the inversion to Dragonstone.
JonCon's Aegon represents the mirror to the Rhoynar...they did float this river...but instead of Nymeria coming to Dorne, Arianne is bringing Dorne to them.
The Lannisters represent the Andals, but instead of the Andal conquerors bringing the Faith of the Seven with them when they came to Westeros, the Faith will take control of the Andals.
As for Jon Snow...there will be a reversal of the First Men story, and having the Nights King and King Beyond the Wall join forces to defeat the Lord of Winterfell (Ramsay) seems likely.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 31, 2016 14:38:40 GMT
Love that thought process! This is sortof where I'm being going in my head with the whole WoT concept - that Westeros is working backwards in the line of conquests and in the end will get back to Ground Zero, the Dawn of Days...where the world will be remade. Starting with the Wot5K, we're moving through a reversal of Nymeria's war, the Andal invasion, etc.
To add to your lineup, I firmly believe that we will see a second showdown around Harrenhal, and with "Aegon the Conqueror" facing off against "The King in the North". And this time, the King will not bend the knee.
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Post by Melifeather on May 31, 2016 15:18:52 GMT
Love that thought process! This is sortof where I'm being going in my head with the whole WoT concept - that Westeros is working backwards in the line of conquests and in the end will get back to Ground Zeros, the Dawn of Days...where the world will be remade. Starting with the Wot5K, we're moving through a reversal of Nymeria's war, the Andal invasion, etc. To add to your lineup, I firmly believe that we will see a second showdown around Harrenhal, and with "Aegon the Conqueror" facing off against "The King in the North". And this time, the King will not bend the knee. I hadn't thought of that one...The King in the North not bending the knee...supercool! And a huge shout out to Phillip Frey on Heresy for providing the Nights King inversion! I hadn't gotten that far in the inversion theory, but it makes sense...and I'll try to get him to come over here.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on May 31, 2016 15:22:24 GMT
That's amazing! I wonder where he found it? I'm going to ask him because I could swear it was on Reddit before being removed. He must of grabbed it fast! Good for him, and great work finding this chilling chapter. I know, right? Not sure of source (I assumed present at the reading, AGOTF usually attends the cons) but half the internet is using this work so kudos to them putting it up so quickly! The link is all over the Westeros forum.
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Post by Melifeather on May 31, 2016 17:48:42 GMT
I just want to point out that my analysis of The Reaver chapter would help fill in the blanks. It's not completed, but I have two parts already posted.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 31, 2016 20:44:48 GMT
Total coincidence, and probably just a stylistic thing from GRRM, but I happen to have ASOS 7 (Jon) open, and the first line is
The world was grey darkness, smelling of pine and moss and cold.
Which rang a bell with
...once again his world would become a damp darkness, smelling of brine and mold and feces.
Now I have no idea if Jon heading to see Mance for the first time means anything here, just pointing it out.
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Post by Weasel Pie on May 31, 2016 23:00:06 GMT
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Post by snowfyre on Jun 1, 2016 18:12:49 GMT
Well I'm gonna be the contrarian here, I guess... because I've read the chapter, and I gotta say: It's disappointing, to me. Really hard to imagine George finishing this story, if he continues to devote entire chapters to POV-limited dreams, recollections of torture, and no more plot than a series of prison transfers under cover of darkness. Eventually, he's got to write the damn story to go along with that stuff.
Anyway. In my opinion, the chapter itself's not worth all the commotion.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jun 1, 2016 18:23:45 GMT
You're not alone in thinking that snowfyre. There is a lot of sensual stuff and it's a kick in the guts in terms of Euron's character developemnt, but it really doesn't do much for the story. So they conquered the Shields and have moved on to the Mander, meanwhile the Tyrell ships have hardly moved from the siege of Dragon Stone. How many hundreds of words spent on very little happening. The fact Martin is still developing characters at this stage of the game is disheartening. And why is he Mad Maxing the prows of his ships? Really? How original.
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Post by Melifeather on Jun 1, 2016 18:25:02 GMT
Well I'm gonna be the contrarian here, I guess... because I've read these chapter, and I gotta say: It's disappointing, to me. Really hard to imagine George finishing this story, if he continues to devote entire chapters to POV-limited dreams, recollections of torture, and no more plot than a series of prison transfers under cover of darkness. Eventually, he's got to write the damn story to go along with that stuff. Anyway. In my opinion, the chapter itself's not worth all the commotion. I think the main purpose of the chapter is to provide the inversion story hiding underneath. I haven't taken the time to decipher it...and I know you don't really believe that there is an inversion story to begin with, but the titled naming makes it one.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jun 1, 2016 18:36:18 GMT
Eventually, he's got to write the damn story to go along with that stuff. And why is he Mad Maxing the prows of his ships? Really? How original. I had the exact thought, although Dany did see the grey corpse on the prow in one of her visions... I think the main purpose of the chapter is to provide the inversion story hiding underneath. I have to agree with this, because even the "useless" chapter about Brienne and the Tarly Wedding Eggs has to mean something in the end. Doesn't it?
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Post by snowfyre on Jun 1, 2016 18:52:24 GMT
The fact Martin is still developing characters at this stage of the game is disheartening. Well, I certainly don't mind character development. I'd just prefer a little more plot development. And surely there's no reason he can't do both at the same time. I know you don't really believe that there is an inversion story to begin with, but the titled naming makes it one. This is true - I'm really not on the inversions train. However, if it turns out you're right in the end - I'll tell everybody! And I'm sure there is a good explanation behind the non-character named chapters. GRRM's been clear on that. even the "useless" chapter about Brienne and the Tarly Wedding Eggs has to mean something in the end. Doesn't it? Man, I hope so. And in general, I trust GRRM's claim that these chapters do have some impact on the main plot. It's just that I'm afraid his tendency to hype the imagery and (as Dunc points out) the sensual/sensory detail - combined with the long, long wait between books - leads us to blow everything way up out of all proportion to their actual significance.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jun 1, 2016 19:17:06 GMT
How many hundreds of words spent on very little happening. The fact Martin is still developing characters at this stage of the game is disheartening. How many hundreds of words that were written five years ago. Everyone is acting like this is all wild new development, and forgetting that he offered to read this very chapter at a con in 2011. We have nothing recent. IS there anything recent, I wonder?
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