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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 15, 2016 23:14:45 GMT
Again agreed. But what is it, on the show? That seems a very interesting question. Not one I've answered, that's for sure. Pigeon speech because the actors don't know and they probably told just mumble some shit,but be sure to say his name is ayeroose and if Robert find out he'll kill him,you know he will because that's what the fanbase believes. Something else jumped out and againt it leads me to conclude that the writers threw fanservice and saw what stuck. Ned gladly digs that Rhaegar is below the ground----Apparently,the writers forgot Targs burn not bury. Dayne tells him he wishes him good fortune in the wars to come....Ok wuh Dayne expected Ned to live and him to die?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 15, 2016 23:39:41 GMT
Dayne tells him he wishes him good fortune in the wars to come....Ok wuh Dayne expected Ned to live and him to die? Great catch! Though I suspect it was simply sloppy writing.
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Post by jnr on Jul 16, 2016 3:21:08 GMT
Pigeon speech because the actors don't know Well, I mean: What is D&D's solution to the mystery of Jon's parents? I'm assuming they have one planned, and have been laying the groundwork for it, and aren't just going to make something up at the last instant -- parents ex machina. One interesting thought I had was that they've claimed in interviews that GRRM has given them three big "holy shit" surprises from future books. Two we know: 1. Shireen is apparently burned. 2. Hodor's name derives from "hold the door." Well, these are both minor characters. Secrets of this sort are just table scraps compared to the feast GRRM has planned; he probably thought he might as well be charitable, given the millions they've put in his bank accounts. All we know of the third is... 3. It's from the very endMy guess is this, too, is only a minor character thing, and certainly not anything as epic as Jon's parents. For one thing, a thorough writer like GRRM wouldn't just drop a bomb like that close to the last page -- "the very end" -- of ADOS; surely there would be complexities, ramifications to walk the reader through. But also, I increasingly don't believe GRRM gave them anything very big. On any subject. Ever. When I consider how little of season six appears to me to have spoiled TWOW, I have to smile. Going into it, I was expecting a hell of a lot more. So this all, to me, just strengthens the possibility that GRRM simply never told them his own plan for Jon's parents, and they intend to do their own thing, based on their own guesses drawn from reading the canon. Which is the same as they've obviously done for other major mysteries... not very skillfully. -- Benioff, May 2016 And yet something tells me most of the fans will continue to believe they have to be the same on "major points." It's an idea that just will not die, similar to the Mountain, though it may scream in agony through the last two years of the show.
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Post by min on Jul 16, 2016 12:54:29 GMT
Pigeon speech because the actors don't know Well, I mean: What is D&D's solution to the mystery of Jon's parents? I'm assuming they have one planned, and have been laying the groundwork for it, and aren't just going to make something up at the last instant -- parents ex machina. One interesting thought I had was that they've claimed in interviews that GRRM has given them three big "holy shit" surprises from future books. Two we know: 1. Shireen is apparently burned. 2. Hodor's name derives from "hold the door." Well, these are both minor characters. Secrets of this sort are just table scraps compared to the feast GRRM has planned; he probably thought he might as well be charitable, given the millions they've put in his bank accounts. All we know of the third is... 3. It's from the very endMy guess is this, too, is only a minor character thing, and certainly not anything as epic as Jon's parents. For one thing, a thorough writer like GRRM wouldn't just drop a bomb like that close to the last page -- "the very end" -- of ADOS; surely there would be complexities, ramifications to walk the reader through. But also, I increasingly don't believe GRRM gave them anything very big. On any subject. Ever. When I consider how little of season six appears to me to have spoiled TWOW, I have to smile. Going into it, I was expecting a hell of a lot more. So this all, to me, just strengthens the possibility that GRRM simply never told them his own plan for Jon's parents, and they intend to do their own thing, based on their own guesses drawn from reading the canon. Which is the same as they've obviously done for other major mysteries... not very skillfully. -- Benioff, May 2016 And yet something tells me most of the fans will continue to believe they have to be the same on "major points." It's an idea that just will not die, similar to the Mountain, though it may scream in agony through the last two years of the show. I went into the season somewhat dubious but hopeful for any crumb, somewhat primed for the kool-aid. In the end, I had to ask myself what we were really told of consequence. Hodor maybe. I didn't know about the three Holy Shit moments. Yes Shireen was a holy shit moment just for it's shock and horror. Same with Hodor and Ramsey, the Battle of the Bastards. But then we have the Tower of Joy with it's missing Kingsguard. Is that a holy shit moment or a bullshit flag moment? Really, I think there were far more WTF moments. As for the third big reveal; well, someone has to die at the end of the book. So we'll have another Hodor bittersweet aftermath moment. "But also, I increasingly don't believe GRRM gave them anything very big. On any subject. Ever."
I don't think anyone can argue with this conclusion. I'd go so far as to say that not delivering TWoW on time is calculated to maintain control of the story. So I wonder why the last season will be split up, if the rumors are true. I wonder what is going into that calculation.
So we wait and twist in the wind.
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Post by jnr on Jul 16, 2016 14:34:46 GMT
But then we have the Tower of Joy with it's missing Kingsguard. Is that a holy shit moment or a bullshit flag moment? I took it as just... D&D are gonna D&D. They just left one out for no reason other than to simplify the fight. Dumbing-down. I suppose you could argue that they knew something special, that in Book World there were only two -- that Ned just dreamed the presence of a third and assigned him a speaking role, etc., but I doubt it. So I wonder why the last season will be split up, if the rumors are true. I can think of several reasons. 1. Epic events in both -- invasion by dragons in the seventh, final confrontation with Popsicles in eighth -- will require extraordinary CGI and orchestration of complex sets/extras and thus, more time as well. 2. HBO loves to drag out the last season of anything successful. See also: The Sopranos, Sex and the City. Gives the franchise time to gain more momentum and increases sales. The last HP book was similarly split into two movies for the same reason, despite having a lamer plot than any of the previous books. 3. There is a distant chance that they'll decide they need a ninth season and/or movie, as both HBO execs and GRRM have suggested, and this gives them more time to make that call before the scripts are written for what is supposed to be "the end." As for the third big reveal; well, someone has to die at the end of the book. So we'll have another Hodor bittersweet aftermath moment. Oh, I'm sure we have lots of deaths to come. But if as Benioff said, GRRM is planning some sort of big surprise for the "very end" of his series -- one that he was willing to tell them about -- I don't think it can be any of the major mysteries we routinely discuss. Those would all need more time to explain and play out. It could be a death, or any other sort of character outcome such as "Tyrion becomes Lord of Casterly Rock," or some revelation about Westeros' past that show viewers (notoriously dim on that subject) haven't even begun to imagine. But whatever it is, I doubt it's a much bigger deal than the derivation of Hodor's name or Shireen being burned alive.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 16, 2016 14:51:44 GMT
My guess is this, too, is only a minor character thing, and certainly not anything as epic as Jon's parents. For one thing, a thorough writer like GRRM wouldn't just drop a bomb like that close to the last page -- "the very end" -- of ADOS; surely there would be complexities, ramifications to walk the reader through. Oh I don't know, he could leave something like Jon's parentage to the very end of the series, if he's built up enough evidence along the way. Even if the evidence is knocking down what he's made obvious previously. And unless Jon's parentage is going to change his character's course in the series, then it really may not matter at all. As it stands right now, Jon is dead or dying and the only thing he was ever meant to do is what he did -- destroy the NW. I doubt it too, but if Martin wants to be a dick, he can be. And if he wants to leave something like this to the very end, then he's skilful enough of a writer to make it clear without having to explain it much beyond a paragraph or two.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 16, 2016 15:12:46 GMT
I'd go so far as to say that not delivering TWoW on time is calculated to maintain control of the story. I can agree with you on this. If I'm recalling my sequence of events correctly, at the start of season 4 Martin put the chapter Mercy on his website, and within a month or so, Arya kills Polliver in the tavern using the same words she uses to kill Raff in the chapter. This year we see the play that takes place in that chapter. Last year he put the Sansa chapter up, just ahead of the show's turning Sansa into Darth Sansa, and in that chapter we see her learning how to play the game in how she hooks Harry the Heir. Additionally, while much slower in his pacing, Sansa's slowly learning how to play is realistic, rather than abrupt. This season, he puts the new Arianne chapter up, and low and behold, all of Martells are killed off in the show, but by choosing her, rather than say a Tyrion or Barristan chapter, Martin is reminding us that guess what, in my world the Martells, not just Dorne, are still at the heart of the story and important allies. From what I've seen so far from Martin, it's like he's gaslighting the showrunners.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 16, 2016 15:30:05 GMT
Great catch! Though I suspect it was simply sloppy writing. Yeah i agree,i think these guys weren't bothered by contnuity and how much sense dialogue needs to have.We need a pulling the trigger on the temple emoji. Well, I mean: What is D&D's solution to the mystery of Jon's parents? I'm assuming they have one planned, and have been laying the groundwork for it, and aren't just going to make something up at the last instant -- parents ex machina. One interesting thought I had was that they've claimed in interviews that GRRM has given them three big "holy shit" surprises from future books. Two we know: 1. Shireen is apparently burned. 2. Hodor's name derives from "hold the door." I want to give them credit,i really do but then they do stupid shit that makes me conclude nothing else but there throwing hints to several theories and letting people run with it.Their attempts at subtly are nonexistent,or it could be they finally grasp GRRMs play on perception and are doing just that.Maybe? As i said i want to give them credit but they messed that up. Ok they give us the "reveal" that has the faithful running around yelling R+L=J confirmed but in reality what he got was inaudible words and phrases.A couple of phrases that one could make out -coincidentally that has been a huge arguement RLJers have used for years-so what was the point of playing at concealing when the only possible conclusion is R+L=J. Again to me the out is the part she whisphered that we didn't here and what Ned might have known or not known when he got there.Going foward whatever phrase(s) they put in those moments can change the entire context of what the audience did here. Then we have the easter eggs that depending on what you believe was shown from season 4-6 which again makes me believe they don't know and are just throwing things that will catch the eyes of different people. 1.Season 4: Maester Aemon's " A targayean alone in the world is a terrible thing camera cut to Jon snow who enters the room 2 seconds later.I rolled my eyes beacuse it was so on the nose. 2.Season 6 : Hit us with what i believe was the cluster f**k of whoever you believe ypu can find an easter egg. a.The Daynish contingency will sight the star on the hilt of Arthur's sword dawn next to a bloody rag.Why was Dayne featured at all when they could have shown Harrenhall and the crowning with Rhaegar. I see their point and agree wouldn't it have been easier to show the crowning with Rhaegar forget the whole Dayne fight scene and just show inside a room? 3. Even i found freaking Easter eggs. Davos finding the Stag now black stag of the Baratheon's changed by fire under the Snow,Melisandre taking that same Stag and laying it at Jon.Why not lay it at Davos feat and walk away.I think they could be setting up Jon in the show to be the next Night King so then what he himself says then becomes relevant " The true enemy won't wait out the storm,he brings the storm" Why not say "The Night king won't wait out the storm".Who are the Stormkings and Stormlords in this series and show? Lastly, everything RLJers and those that subcribe to this theory in their minds was made evident.As soon there was a toj R+L=J flags started waving.After the last proclamations of it being confirmed eventhough it really wasn't soooo,in short maybe they don't know but created a finale where different people can have discussions about things that they believe point to whatever the believe.When they do find out they just have to add a phrase here and then point to certain clues here then boom. As for the (3) things and what the latter could be.It can't be R+L=J that reveal won't be shocker.As i've been saying since ATS was with us.It can't be a secret if it can be solved with simple math and playing the card magical hats from Yu Ghi Oh.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 16, 2016 17:15:01 GMT
3. Even i found freaking Easter eggs. Davos finding the Stag now black stag of the Baratheon's changed by fire under the Snow,Melisandre taking that same Stag and laying it at Jon.Why not lay it at Davos feat and walk away.I think they could be setting up Jon in the show to be the next Night King so then what he himself says then becomes relevant " The true enemy won't wait out the storm,he brings the storm" Why not say "The Night king won't wait out the storm".Who are the Stormkings and Stormlords in this series and show? Blimey! I completely missed that. Nice!
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Post by jnr on Jul 16, 2016 17:44:31 GMT
As it stands right now, Jon is dead or dying and the only thing he was ever meant to do is what he did -- destroy the NW. I doubt it too, but if Martin wants to be a dick, he can be. Well, yeah. If he wants to introduce the dinosaurs from Sothoryos, he can do that too, but I don't think he will. I'm sure Book Jon is going to do far more in the series than simply create dissension in the Watch; for me his resurrection is inevitable, just as the Wall being overcome by Popsicles is, and Dany invading Westeros with dragons is. These things are for me what RLJ is for Ran, just stuff I take for granted. I would call it storytelling malpractice if Jon's story was really finished. BTW, I recall that for years Black Crow maintained Dany was never coming to Westeros with dragons -- that she was, instead, going to "sort out fire in Valyria" to parallel Jon "sorting out ice in the North." Weeeellll, I haven't heard him take that position in a while. nd if he wants to leave something like this to the very end, then he's skilful enough of a writer to make it clear without having to explain it much beyond a paragraph or two. I'm pretty sure he's not going to drop such a bomb with a paragraph or two. This is a major revelation he's been planning to roll out for more than twenty years, and he is well aware of how utterly he has fooled his fandom. He knows, too, that because people are overwhelmingly expecting RLJ, any non-RLJ answer he dishes up will never, ever satisfy unless it comes bundled with a thorough explanation of how such a thing could be the case and still make sense. So it's going to be important to him to explain the truth in some detail -- not just for his own satisfaction, but to answer the endless questions of the fans, and also to stop people from saying "You just pulled that out of your ass at the last minute." The surrounding information he provides will demonstrate overwhelmingly and conclusively that he really did plan this long ago, that he set it up well, that he provided quite a pile of clues, and therefore... it wasn't his fault that the fans didn't see it coming. They simply chose to believe the thing they wanted to believe: a fairy tale about a beautiful prince and his doomed love for the wild young maiden with whom he eloped. And I think we're going to get all this in the next book, too. Not the very end of ADOS. (God willing, we'll find that out whether that prediction is accurate soon enough, though every month that goes by with no update makes me wonder a little more.) But what D&D have in mind, if anything, continues to be a mystery. Wolfmaid could be right, and they could do to Jon's parents what they did in taking that baby to the Heart of Winter, or making Arya invulnerable in season six: give us something that makes absolutely no sense at all, to anybody except them. Unlike GRRM they've got very little strength as storytellers and I'm not sure, if you put a gun to their heads, that they could even spell "continuity."
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 16, 2016 17:45:41 GMT
Blimey! I completely missed that. Nice! as i said,many people could look since season 4 and see things that could give the impression that they got the subtly down. Or maybe its perception.If the show is smarter than we give them credit for.But man they made some crappy writing choices.Maybe they were eager to have a "stellar" season and sacrificed somethings a lot of things in that department. The CGI and battles was great though.
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Post by min on Jul 16, 2016 18:37:27 GMT
BTW, I recall that for years Black Crow maintained Dany was never coming to Westeros with dragons -- that she was, instead, going to "sort out fire in Valyria" to parallel Jon "sorting out ice in the North." Weeeellll, I haven't heard him take that position in a while. LOL! The great thing is that you can always change your mind.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 16, 2016 19:00:42 GMT
BTW, I recall that for years Black Crow maintained Dany was never coming to Westeros with dragons -- that she was, instead, going to "sort out fire in Valyria" to parallel Jon "sorting out ice in the North." Weeeellll, I haven't heard him take that position in a while. I think he still thinks this. I'm kind of leaning that way too. If there is a wheel of time and its running backward, Victarion and Euron may be successful in taking at least two of Dany's dragons while she's away with the Dothraki and Drogon. Victarion seems to be mirroring Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel, so I anticipate that this time a "Blackfyre" rebellion will work this time as there won't be a Bloodraven to mysteriously have forces in just the right places at just the right time. Dany, therefore seems her role is to be the source of dragons. She is called the Mother of Dragons after all. Euron and Victarion are like an inverted Bloodraven and Bittersteel unified this time instead of divided loyalties. The Dusky Woman is symbolically Shiera Seastar, the woman Bloodraven and Bittersteel fought over. This time Euron/Bloodraven allowed Victarion/Bittersteel to keep her, although her tongue has been cut out.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 16, 2016 19:15:51 GMT
I'm sure Book Jon is going to do far more in the series than simply create dissension in the Watch; for me his resurrection is inevitable, just as the Wall being overcome by Popsicles is, and Dany invading Westeros with dragons is. These things are for me what RLJ is for Ran, just stuff I take for granted. I would call it storytelling malpractice if Jon's story was really finished. Absolutely. I was just giving an example of what kind of story telling Martin is capable of. Think how beloved Ned is, and yet he's d-e-d. Same with Robb and to a lessor extent Catelyn. Two PoV characters dead within three books. That's the kind of story he started to tell, then he changed to fake out deaths, which are annoying in their own way. Part of me wishes Jon would actually remain dead, only because of the impact it would have on the story. It would be Martin going back to Thrones and Clash style writing. Not this prolonged affair where every one of the major characters is safe due to plot armour and foodie meals they'll miss otherwise. Actually, even secondary characters like Brienne are safe, she nearly dies about 3 times in Feast. Davos, same. Come now. But on the whole, yes I believe the same as you, Jon still has a major part to play, but I don't think whatever it is he does will be linked to his parentage -- with the exception of him being a Son of Winterfell. In whatever manner he got his Stark blood. Or perhaps it does matter how he got his blood... ugh, see this is why I've given up. Whatevs. Jon will do what needs must. So it's going to be important to him to explain the truth in some detail -- not just for his own satisfaction, but to answer the endless questions of the fans, and also to stop people from saying "You just pulled that out of your ass at the last minute." The surrounding information he provides will demonstrate overwhelmingly and conclusively that he really did plan this long ago, that he set it up well, that he provided quite a pile of clues, and therefore... it wasn't his fault that the fans didn't see it coming. They simply chose to believe the thing they wanted to believe: a fairy tale about a beautiful prince and his doomed love for the wild young maiden with whom he eloped. Bloody Hell No! Please, no. Just. No. I don't want to see this series turn into the last Harry Potter book. Too much explaining and not enough doing. FFS Rowling had to, not once, but twice explain to her fans that Dumbledore was indeed dead, because her fans were so convinced he somehow managed to survive the Killing Curse, and a fall from the highest bloody tower in Hogwarts, without a wand. Then all the forced situations the characters are put to in order to explain the backstory of the Potter's and Dumbledore's and Voldemort's lives. Along with daft information about a set of magical objects that have nil to do with Harry's victory. All he had to do to win was defeat the owner of the Elder Wand in order to get a pass. UGH! All Jon has to do is embrace his parentage. I will burn the book if Winds turns out that way! if you put a gun to their heads, that they could even spell "continuity." Fecking Cogman. He couldn't spot continuity if it danced in front of him naked, ringing bells. Shame! Shame! Shame!
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Post by jnr on Jul 16, 2016 19:38:44 GMT
Bloody Hell No! Please, no. Just. No. I don't want to see this series turn into the last Harry Potter book. Too much explaining and not enough doing. Ah, I see. You're picturing a sort of extended monologue, like that horrible conclusion where the ownership of the Elder Wand is trotted out instead of Harry and Voldemort just going at it. That sucked because it was totally fake -- two mortal enemies like that would never stand around talking. That's not what I mean; I mean the opposite of that, that GRRM is going to have to provide information, or the revelation will seem fake. GRRM's told us, outright, that Jon is going to find out who his parents are. Don't you think it would be realistic for him to have questions at this point? I sure do. Those questions will need answers, and the answers will also go a long way toward helping the fans comprehend this stuff. Also, it's not essential for GRRM to provide it in a big infodump. Some of it might come from Jon asking questions and getting answers. But some of it might also come to the reader via Bran and his weirvisions, chapters before or after that point. Some of it might come via Mel having visions of the past (remember she claims to be able to do this in the flames, too, not just see the future). Some of it might also come from the fans going "Holy shit!" and then rereading earlier books looking for information that would pretty much have to be there, if the tale they just read in TWOW is the truth. And when they do that rereading, and get the confirmation they are seeking, that stuff too will be important and will help to fill in blanks. None of it is going to be similar to Harry vs. Voldemort. There's never going to be a scene where (for instance) Jon is supposed to be fighting Ramsay to the death, but instead he stops to chat about his parents for no apparent reason. It will happen in a natural way that proceeds logically from the story we've heard so far (such as Bran continuing to research his family's history via the weirwoods... or certain people telling Jon certain things for good reasons). The bottom line is that GRRM really just cannot possibly conclude ADOS with anything resembling this:
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