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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 17, 2016 14:56:19 GMT
You're picturing a sort of extended monologue, like that horrible conclusion where the ownership of the Elder Wand is trotted out instead of Harry and Voldemort just going at it. That sucked because it was totally fake -- two mortal enemies like that would never stand around talking. Well, yes that was daft. All the dialogue, better yet half, could've been left for Harry explaining what he'd figured out to Ron and Hermione later after he'd won the duel, with the other half edited out entirely. But it wasn't entirely what I was thinking of. Also, it's not essential for GRRM to provide it in a big infodump. This is what I'm worried about. In Deathly Hallows we get two enormous chapters of info dumping right at the end, when things should be straight plot, not explanatory narrative. The chapter where Harry's 'dead' and sees Dumbledore is a good example of terrible within this book book alone. You go from the emotional high of Harry sacrificing himself to an entire chapter of explanations to shite that's f-all to do with the end of the story in terms of vital information Harry needs to receive in order to win. Worse, but a better example for our purposes, is the chapter about Snape's life, where Harry goes through every fecking memory the man had from childhood to yesterday, all in order to convince the reader of his being a good guy. Thing is there were very few clues in the previous books about Snape ever having given a damn about Harry. Don't get confused by the films because they did a much better job of showing Snape actually looking out for Harry even though he hates the boy. In the books we don't get any inkling that Snape has a redemptive feature, let alone an arc, because they are too subtle. In seven books all we get to redeem Snape is that Dumbledore trusts him. But we also get plenty of instances where it seems Dumbledore was hoodwinked, after all here's a guy that's fooling Voldemort about his continued and supreme allegiance. If the best legilimense in the world can be fooled, why not the greatest wizard in the world? End result -- way too much explaining instead of showing through actions. As long as there are clues to an alternate parentage for Jon and they don't need the kind of info dumps that will rob us of chapters of explanations then I'll be fine with it. A less subtle clue here, a more overt one there, a short conversation touching around the subject while speaking of the man and woman (not necessarily at the same time) or vision from Mel or Bran that neither of them understands but the reader does will work. Just don't hit us over the head with the how's and why's of the whole thing because we're too hard of thinking to figure it out on our own from the clues you've set up before you reveal it. Or after, for that matter. If it's not RLJ and the fans have a problem with that, then it's the fan's problem, not Martin's. I don't want Dany turning up and insisting Jon is her brother's son because she doesn't want to believe she got it wrong, and then get lengthy conversations telling exactly where and how she is mistaken.
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Post by jnr on Jul 17, 2016 16:14:29 GMT
As long as there are clues to an alternate parentage for Jon and they don't need the kind of info dumps that will rob us of chapters of explanations then I'll be fine with it. A less subtle clue here, a more overt one there, Yep, that's the way you do it. If I'm right, what you want has been happening all along, more relevant clues provided in every book, and TWOW will be the payoff. And whether or not I have the right parents in mind, I still think TWOW will provide final resolution of this mystery. I even predict GRRM will be asked about this in interviews and he'll spend a certain amount of time crowing about it, like a hacker who dug up and published Trump's tax returns. Just don't hit us over the head with the how's and why's of the whole thing because we're too hard of thinking to figure it out on our own from the clues you've set up before you reveal it. This is a balancing act for GRRM. If he includes no hows and whys, that means Jon found out and asked no questions along such lines, which means Jon is not a realistic human being any more, basically... to have no curiosity about his own parents, or even any disbelief at such a surprising story. His first reaction ought to be this: BTW, that same interview I'm talking about, in which GRRM said Jon would be told about his parents, has been scrubbed from the Internet. Probably because it proves conclusively that Jon's assassination wasn't permanently fatal -- because he has definitely not found out yet! It was a Barnes and Noble interview done as a chat session and you can find a reference to it here. I read it years ago, and can confirm it said this. I don't want Dany turning up and insisting Jon is her brother's son because she doesn't want to believe she got it wrong, and then get lengthy conversations telling exactly where and how she is mistaken. No worries, man. I'd ballpark the probability of Dany insisting Jon is her brother's son at well under one percent.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 17, 2016 16:46:20 GMT
This is a balancing act for GRRM. If he includes no hows and whys, that means Jon found out and asked no questions along such lines, which means Jon is not a realistic human being any more, basically... to have no curiosity about his own parents, or even any disbelief at such a surprising story. His first reaction ought to be this: Oh don't get me wrong here, I would expect Jon to ask questions and get answers that are satisfactory to all. My thing is if Martin's laid out the clues, don't go over them again. In other words don't explain what's been shown, just fill in the gaps. My snark about Dany insisting on Jon being her nephew after the answer has been given would be to explain to RLJers in the same way that Rowling had to explain (twice in one book) that Dumbledore is indeed dead. See what I mean? It's pounding us over the head about stuff we already know simply because there was so much fan opposition to the situation. Actually if you read that reddit, there's a link to the online chat at Barnes & Nobles where he does answer the question 'will Jon ever find out about his parentage'. Martin answers 'Eventually, yes'. Quite clearly, Martin was writing Dance in 2008 and he knew Jon was not going to die or remain dead.
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Post by jnr on Jul 17, 2016 21:06:15 GMT
See what I mean? It's pounding us over the head about stuff we already know simply because there was so much fan opposition to the situation. I don't see any reason this would be essential. If GRRM does what I expect, his idea is to • Arrange matters so Jon finds out • Walk Jon through the expected emotions and questions, providing answers that satisfy him• Also provide enough information that the described scenario is, even to the well-informed reader, clearly within the boundaries laid out by earlier books/SSMs Which is not all that hard to do. It might be condensed to half a chapter in a book with seventy chapters -- call it three or four thousand words. But I can't really picture it happening at "the very end" of the series. OK, that is the core information. Hardcore fans, such as anyone reading this post, will then almost certainly scour earlier books trying to confirm, expand on, or deny that basic premise... and when they do, if they are honest with themselves, they will find it's difficult to deny, and pretty easy to expand on. (Of course, there will probably be those who are not honest with themselves, and who somehow still huddle around the last flickering embers of RLJ, like Neanderthals unhappy with a change in the weather and unaware they are about to lose control of Europe.) Actually if you read that reddit, there's a link to the online chat at Barnes & Nobles where he does answer the question 'will Jon ever find out about his parentage'. Martin answers 'Eventually, yes'. Well, not the original chat, but an archive of it stored elsewhere. But the content is definitely the same I recall, so the odds seem good Jon will indeed find out. Quite clearly, Martin was writing Dance in 2008 and he knew Jon was not going to die or remain dead. I would agree with that, though I also strongly suspect he didn't yet know he was going to end Jon's story in ADWD on that cliffhanger... or he wouldn't have made such a mistake. It's very rare to see him fumble like that.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 17, 2016 22:03:43 GMT
This is a balancing act for GRRM. If he includes no hows and whys, that means Jon found out and asked no questions along such lines, which means Jon is not a realistic human being any more, basically... to have no curiosity about his own parents, or even any disbelief at such a surprising story. His first reaction ought to be this: BTW, that same interview I'm talking about, in which GRRM said Jon would be told about his parents, has been scrubbed from the Internet. Probably because it proves conclusively that Jon's assassination wasn't permanently fatal -- because he has definitely not found out yet! It was a Barnes and Noble interview done as a chat session and you can find a reference to it here. I read it years ago, and can confirm it said this. You hit upon something that gave me a thought.If Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon is the case, there is literally no one who can give Jon any details about his parents relationship.There's no satisfaction to be had,no questions to by Jon answered.There isn't enough Weirwoods where Bran can get into the heart of what they may or may not have felt.RLJ when you think about it really cannot give Jon answers about his parents as a unit.Even if Howland came out of his swamp with a moldy parchment there's nothing he can give Jon beyond the superficial.Unless,there's a love letter(s) that can give the essence of their story.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 17, 2016 22:50:12 GMT
Unless Mance is Rhaegar...Some Pigs theory that the tower of joy was a blood magic ritual that resurrected Rhaegar and he then made his way to the Wall... I guess that's one way Rhaegar could be Jon's father and be a reveal that also fits Bael the Bard.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 17, 2016 23:00:51 GMT
Unless Mance is Rhaegar...Some Pigs theory that the tower of joy was a blood magic ritual that resurrected Rhaegar and he then made his way to the Wall... I guess that's one way Rhaegar could be Jon's father and be a reveal that also fits Bael the Bard. One of the things that greatly unhinges me about Mance being Jon's dad,is the beat down he gave Jon.He was slamming Jon's head into the ground and had to pulled off him.He baited Jon into a fight and wailed on him.Then there's another issue Mance was basically married to Dalla right? Sooo Aemon Steelsong,Aegon,and Jon would be in the mix??
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 3:23:17 GMT
RLJ when you think about it really cannot give Jon answers about his parents as a unit.Even if Howland came out of his swamp with a moldy parchment there's nothing he can give Jon beyond the superficial.Unless,there's a love letter(s) that can give the essence of their story. Well, just to play devil's advocate, it seems like that would depend on how much Lyanna told Ned, and Ned subsequently told Howland, about her relationship with Rhaegar. We don't get, in canon, a clear idea of the amount of time Ned talked to her. If she died two minutes flat after he showed up in her room, that would be yet another enormous coincidence. My guess is they talked for quite some time; a day or more doesn't seem unimaginable. Lyanna was weak and talking was a struggle, but she seems to have had a strong motive... So Howland could know quite a bit. Then there's the fact that we're told "they" found Ned holding her hand after she died... this I imagine was quite a deliberate choice of words on GRRM's part. So there's at least one more person who might be very well informed about Lyanna's missing time than just Howland. Well, unless GRRM meant, by "they," that Howland had multiple personalities. Which come to think of it would explain a lot -- for instance, maybe one of his alternate personalities happened to be outstanding in the joust.
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 3:26:33 GMT
And of course all the above assumes Ned found Lyanna in the ToJ, per standard RLJ... which as Weasel demonstrated a year ago, isn't really a canonical fact. Just a show fact.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 18, 2016 13:54:57 GMT
Well, just to play devil's advocate, it seems like that would depend on how much Lyanna told Ned, and Ned subsequently told Howland, about her relationship with Rhaegar. We don't get, in canon, a clear idea of the amount of time Ned talked to her. If she died two minutes flat after he showed up in her room, that would be yet another enormous coincidence. My guess is they talked for quite some time; a day or more doesn't seem unimaginable. Lyanna was weak and talking was a struggle, but she seems to have had a strong motive... So Howland could know quite a bit. Then there's the fact that we're told "they" found Ned holding her hand after she died... this I imagine was quite a deliberate choice of words on GRRM's part. So there's at least one more person who might be very well informed about Lyanna's missing time than just Howland. Well, unless GRRM meant, by "they," that Howland had multiple personalities. Which come to think of it would explain a lot -- for instance, maybe one of his alternate personalities happened to be outstanding in the joust. Oh i defintely think Howland knows a lot,but what he knows under the "current belief" of RLJ makes it difficult to assert that he knows anything beyond the superficial.Like you i do believe he was with her a longer time and it just amazes me how much Robert's death parallels hers.Robert got gored by the Boar and he survived 4-5 days after as infection set in because they had to taxi him from deep in the Kingswood back. Lyanna died of an infection in a place that was not secluded near habitations she could get help.I bring this up to point to the convienience of Ned showing up on the day she died just moments before. Ned was torn up when Howland found him,shock a bit of memory lapse.I don't know how much he would be in the mood for talking and giving Howland the low down.I mean Ned was alive and done with this war would he have a reason to fill Howland in on everything. But my problem overall is Lyanna having the time to tell Ned more han just "Rhaegar and i loved each other," him relaying that in essence to Howland for the purpose of him telling Jon whereby he would have all his questions answered.
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 14:59:08 GMT
Ned was torn up when Howland found him,shock a bit of memory lapse.I don't know how much he would be in the mood for talking and giving Howland the low down.I mean Ned was alive and done with this war would he have a reason to fill Howland in on everything. Well, continuing to assume we're talking about RLJ, I think I can answer that. In RLJ, Lyanna has just asked Ned to protect Jon by raising him as Ned's bastard. Now, Howland is also there. He surely knows this baby is Lyanna's. And that is a fact that can never, ever come out in public; it must never be known she was pregnant at all or suspicions will immediately form concerning Ned's bastard. So (still according to RLJ) Ned is therefore forced to swear Howland to silence on this subject. He's having to trust Howland, which means he might also tell Howland quite a bit about the baby, Lyanna, Rhaegar, etc etc. to justify this silence on Howland's part. All this makes pretty good sense, given how we're repeatedly told how close Howland and Ned are, how they have an extraordinary bond. Did Howland keep these secrets (if he knew)? Well, it certainly doesn't appear to have gotten out in general Westerosi society that Lyanna ever had a baby. So I'd say he did; if Howland ever did tell a soul, it could only have been someone he himself trusted absolutely, and who deserved that trust.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 18, 2016 16:49:03 GMT
Well, continuing to assume we're talking about RLJ, I think I can answer that. In RLJ, Lyanna has just asked Ned to protect Jon by raising him as Ned's bastard. Now, Howland is also there. He surely knows this baby is Lyanna's. And that is a fact that can never, ever come out in public; it must never be known she was pregnant at all or suspicions will immediately form concerning Ned's bastard. So (still according to RLJ) Ned is therefore forced to swear Howland to silence on this subject. He's having to trust Howland, which means he might also tell Howland quite a bit about the baby, Lyanna, Rhaegar, etc etc. to justify this silence on Howland's part. All this makes pretty good sense, given how we're repeatedly told how close Howland and Ned are, how they have an extraordinary bond. Did Howland keep these secrets (if he knew)? Well, it certainly doesn't appear to have gotten out in general Westerosi society that Lyanna ever had a baby. So I'd say he did; if Howland ever did tell a soul, it could only have been someone he himself trusted absolutely, and who deserved that trust. Not only Howland,he's going to have to swear a lot of people to silence; for surely the other people who were there and witnessed baby Jon crying in a corner would have questions.He'd have to trust the 1 or 2 handmaidens (rljers not me saying that) that were there,the others who were with Howland when "they" found him. I mean alot of people are going to ask questions "if" Lyanna was present with a baby in the room.Or else Ned and Howland killed everyone who was there. Assuming rlj and all this went down at toj ofcourse
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 18, 2016 17:21:30 GMT
So (still according to RLJ) Ned is therefore forced to swear Howland to silence on this subject. He's having to trust Howland, which means he might also tell Howland quite a bit about the baby, Lyanna, Rhaegar, etc etc. to justify this silence on Howland's part. All this makes pretty good sense, given how we're repeatedly told how close Howland and Ned are, how they have an extraordinary bond. Not only Howland,he's going to have to swear a lot of people to silence; for surely the other people who were there and witnessed baby Jon crying in a corner would have questions.He'd have to trust the 1 or 2 handmaidens (rljers not me saying that) that were there,the others who were with Howland when "they" found him. Talking from an RLJ PoV, Howland and Ned did seem to have the kind of relationship that would keep Howland silent. Say the relationship started at the ToHH, and Ned was the KotLT, then Howland would be indebted to him for saving his honour. Then we also know Ned would've died in that fight with Dayne if not for the little Cranogman. So again another bond; Ned owes Howland. On the whole, I think Howland would keep Lyanna's secret too, even without any bond between he and Ned because of Lya's actions at ToHH. As to the 'they' that too can be easily solved if the handmaiden was Wylla. So if RLJ in the ToJ, then the 'they' is made up of only 3 people. One prepared to swear Jon is hers, the other to swear Jon is his, and the last to swear silence. Everyone else is dead. All very neat, no?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 18, 2016 17:27:41 GMT
Now, Howland is also there. He surely knows this baby is Lyanna's. And that is a fact that can never, ever come out in public; it must never be known she was pregnant at all or suspicions will immediately form concerning Ned's bastard. Which I have always found nonsensical. How could a woman, kidnapped and raped hundreds of times NOT fall pregnant? By Robert's and Bran's own logic, a year or so worth of being raped should make anyone wonder how she failed to conceive. And yet, conveniently, no one in the entire series wonders about this.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 18, 2016 17:35:05 GMT
You hit upon something that gave me a thought.If Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon is the case, there is literally no one who can give Jon any details about his parents relationship Since the Harrenhal tourney and the KotLT has previously been left out of the show plot, it could make its way into the later seasons. (I wouldn't be surprised if the crowning of Lyanna made its way into the show if they want to RLJ) I mention this because Meera knows the "sadder" tale of the wolf maid. Meera, who is often forgotten, knows the tales of the days when Howland was travelling the world outside the Neck. She has knowledge that few living folks have.
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