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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 18, 2016 18:31:47 GMT
Talking from an RLJ PoV, Howland and Ned did seem to have the kind of relationship that would keep Howland silent. Say the relationship started at the ToHH, and Ned was the KotLT, then Howland would be indebted to him for saving his honour. Then we also know Ned would've died in that fight with Dayne if not for the little Cranogman. So again another bond; Ned owes Howland. On the whole, I think Howland would keep Lyanna's secret too, even without any bond between he and Ned because of Lya's actions at ToHH. As to the 'they' that too can be easily solved if the handmaiden was Wylla. So if RLJ in the ToJ, then the 'they' is made up of only 3 people. One prepared to swear Jon is hers, the other to swear Jon is his, and the last to swear silence. Everyone else is dead. All very neat, no? Since the Harrenhal tourney and the KotLT has previously been left out of the show plot, it could make its way into the later seasons. (I wouldn't be surprised if the crowning of Lyanna made its way into the show if they want to RLJ) I mention this because Meera knows the "sadder" tale of the wolf maid. Meera, who is often forgotten, knows the tales of the days when Howland was travelling the world outside the Neck. She has knowledge that few living folks have. True,True.
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 22:01:56 GMT
Since the Harrenhal tourney and the KotLT has previously been left out of the show plot, it could make its way into the later seasons. (I wouldn't be surprised if the crowning of Lyanna made its way into the show if they want to RLJ) It did. Littlefinger brought up Harrenhal and the crown when he was discussing Lyanna in the crypts with Sansa. youtu.be/Bfnl9owFc84?t=67But watch Littlefinger's face (particularly his left eyebrow) when Sansa says that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped her." youtu.be/Bfnl9owFc84?t=141IMO, that is D&D's idea of a Subtle Clue. There has been, however, no reference to the KotLT at all.
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 22:06:59 GMT
In other news, I decided that it's unnatural and arguably immoral to try to think like an RLJer. So, instead, I asked two of the smarter ones I know (neither of whom read Westeros at all). Their first answer was that Bran will tell Jon, after learning all the facts via the weirnet, and it will happen via a dream, much in the same way Bran had a dream-based communication with Jon in CoK. A plausible and reasonable answer, I couldn't deny it. One of them, btw, recently proposed a $1000 bet with me. My theory vs. the field of all other theories of Jon's parents, even odds. Well, those are crazy-unfair terms, but I took this bet. He then said never mind, he "wouldn't be comfortable taking my money."
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Post by azriel on Jul 18, 2016 22:24:11 GMT
So in the end, no matter who his parents are, he is still a bastard, correct? Would he have more claim to the throne then Daeny, since he is her uncle? I would think not because he is an illegitimate heir, but who knows where they will go with it.
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Post by min on Jul 18, 2016 22:30:44 GMT
So in the end, no matter who is parents are, he is still a bastard, correct? Would he have more claim to the throne then Daeny, since he is her uncle? I would think not because he is an illegitimate heir, but who knows where they will go with it. Welcome Azriel! Stannis offers to undo his bastardy and make him Lord of Wintrfell in the books if he joins Stannis' cause. So apparently, political expediency can remove the bastard stain. Then there are the Great Bastards who were also legitimized: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Great_BastardsAnd in Dorne; bastardy isn't an issue. Different cultural values. So there is plenty of precedent.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 18, 2016 22:31:10 GMT
So in the end, no matter who is parents are, he is still a bastard, correct? Would he have more claim to the throne then Daeny, since he is her uncle? I would think not because he is an illegitimate heir, but who knows where they will go with it. There is a belief out there that Lyanna and Rhaegar has a secret marriage, despite Rhaegar already being married to Elia Martell. The Targaryens did have a history of polygamy. If he is legitimate, that would trump Dany's claim. Dany would be his aunt. Not many of us here believe this, in fact not many of us believe that Lyanna and Rhaegar are his parents (we call this RLJ). I personally think that Jon's "bastardness" is an essential part of him, and I'd be really disappointed in the "secret hidden legitimate king" trope!
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Post by azriel on Jul 18, 2016 22:34:32 GMT
So in the end, no matter who is parents are, he is still a bastard, correct? Would he have more claim to the throne then Daeny, since he is her uncle? I would think not because he is an illegitimate heir, but who knows where they will go with it. Welcome Azriel! Stannis offers to undo his bastardy and make him Lord of Wintrfell in the books if he joins Stannis' cause. So apparently, political expediency can remove the bastard stain. Then there are the Great Bastards who were also legitimized: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Great_BastardsAnd in Dorne; bastardy isn't an issue. Different cultural values. So there is plenty of precedent. Thanks for the welcome! Yeah he did offer on the show as well, that is all I have gotten into, haven't the books just haven't read yet. Just was curious what would happen since he is a bastard because it seems that is a huge issue in GoT. It will be interesting to see what happens next season. Unless I get through the books first, but does anyone know if any of this was uncovered in the books?
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Post by min on Jul 18, 2016 22:46:02 GMT
Welcome Azriel! Stannis offers to undo his bastardy and make him Lord of Wintrfell in the books if he joins Stannis' cause. So apparently, political expediency can remove the bastard stain. Then there are the Great Bastards who were also legitimized: awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Great_BastardsAnd in Dorne; bastardy isn't an issue. Different cultural values. So there is plenty of precedent. Thanks for the welcome! Yeah he did offer on the show as well, that is all I have gotten into, haven't the books just haven't read yet. Just was curious what would happen since he is a bastard because it seems that is a huge issue in GoT. It will be interesting to see what happens next season. Unless I get through the books first, but does anyone know if any of this was uncovered in the books? I came to the books the same way. I started watching GoT and then I couldn't stand waiting to find out what would happen, so I started reading the books. And that as they say, was that. You have incredible surprises in store for you!
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 18, 2016 23:04:08 GMT
Yeah he did offer on the show as well, that is all I have gotten into, haven't the books just haven't read yet. Just was curious what would happen since he is a bastard because it seems that is a huge issue in GoT. It will be interesting to see what happens next season. Unless I get through the books first, but does anyone know if any of this was uncovered in the books? The bastard issue is big in the books too. And no, we are still all in the dark about who Jon's parents really are. Well, except JNR who has his own theory and is convinced he's uncovered the truth. The rest of us are just making, and unmaking, and remaking it up as we go along. Heh.
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Post by jnr on Jul 18, 2016 23:40:03 GMT
There is a belief out there that Lyanna and Rhaegar has a secret marriage, despite Rhaegar already being married to Elia Martell. And for Azriel: this idea usually makes people wonder where the proof of marriage would come from. The response is usually either or both of: 1. It was Septon Meribald who married them, and he can directly testify to this effect 2. There was a signed document, Howland has it, and it will be produced eventually (cf. "mouldy parchment") The Targaryens did have a history of polygamy. In the same sense that American presidents have a history of wearing powdered wigs -- not for the last 200 years. Well, except JNR who has his own theory and is convinced he's uncovered the truth. Don't forget Snowfyre, who independently worked it out. Not just that, he accurately predicted he would by the end of a particular day, like Babe Ruth calling his home run in advance.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 19, 2016 0:41:00 GMT
Don't forget Snowfyre, who independently worked it out. Not just that, he accurately predicted he would by the end of a particular day, like Babe Ruth calling his home run in advance. True, but since he's not been posting in here, I figured I wouldn't confuse Azriel. And I'm impressed snowfyre, you never told me that part about how you figured it out, you modest chap.
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Post by min on Jul 19, 2016 1:46:56 GMT
One of them, btw, recently proposed a $1000 bet with me. My theory vs. the field of all other theories of Jon's parents, even odds. Well, those are crazy-unfair terms, but I took this bet. He then said never mind, he "wouldn't be comfortable taking my money." Can I have a clue? I didn't think it could get worse than waiting for WoW. But it did just now.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 19, 2016 2:18:03 GMT
Since the Harrenhal tourney and the KotLT has previously been left out of the show plot, it could make its way into the later seasons. (I wouldn't be surprised if the crowning of Lyanna made its way into the show if they want to RLJ) It did. Littlefinger brought up Harrenhal and the crown when he was discussing Lyanna in the crypts with Sansa. youtu.be/Bfnl9owFc84?t=67But watch Littlefinger's face (particularly his left eyebrow) when Sansa says that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped her." youtu.be/Bfnl9owFc84?t=141IMO, that is D&D's idea of a Subtle Clue. There has been, however, no reference to the KotLT at all. Ah. I remember reading about Littlefinger's 'info dump.' That wasnt very subtle, was it? In show world, Lyanna as the mystery knight doesnt play into Rhaegar honoring her with the blue roses. Good call on that one.
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Post by jnr on Jul 19, 2016 2:55:41 GMT
Ah. I remember reading about Littlefinger's 'info dump.' That wasnt very subtle, was it? Not to us crazy Heretics, trained by GRRM for years to overinterpret every speck of dust. I will say you could interpret his expression in at least two ways: 1. Littlefinger realizes Sansa doesn't know Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other 2. Littlefinger realizes Sansa doesn't know something quite different from that But it is interesting to me that Littlefinger apparently expected her to know the truth -- or what he considers the truth. Probably because she's a Stark. So no matter what, Littlefinger knows things pertinent to Lyanna that not even Sansa knows, which is fairly suggestive since the show also hammers into our heads that he gets info through his brothels. Could it be he learned something about Rhaegar in this way, that isn't public knowledge? In show world, Lyanna as the mystery knight doesnt play into Rhaegar honoring her with the blue roses. Good call on that one. I'm really not sure what they're doing in the show with that. Could be there's some strategy, or they could just have done their thing of leaving out stuff that to us seems incredibly important -- the Black Gate for instance. Or Lightbringer. Or AAR. Or the Horn of Winter. Hard to believe they couldn't find the time for any of that, but they could find the time for Tyrion to tell Grey Worm pointless jokes.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Jul 19, 2016 13:56:52 GMT
I will say you could interpret his expression in at least two ways: I this be the point and yet another "out" created by the show just like the inaudible whisphers.The two points you provided relies on the audience to assume and in 90% of the case Rhaegar+Lyanna=Jon.They could simply say afterwards in the case of the whispers and LF's non verbal communicade the audience dupped themselves.Maybe.just maybe they are learning. I'm really not sure what they're doing in the show with that. Could be there's some strategy, or they could just have done their thing of leaving out stuff that to us seems incredibly important -- the Black Gate for instance. Or Lightbringer. Or AAR. Or the Horn of Winter. Hard to believe they couldn't find the time for any of that, but they could find the time for Tyrion to tell Grey Worm pointless jokes. What will make and has made this show successful is pandering to the majority of audience expectations.What's important to us wee folk doesn't number among the majority.Like it or not the fandom created a monster that D&D are capitalizing on that's why the lead up to that reveal both in the toj episode and the last made no sense.They just needed a really great season to erase the majority of season 5.
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