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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 27, 2016 1:02:26 GMT
I really wish we had a Stark family tree that went further back, because going by the one in the World Book, little Stark Snows are actually few and far between. Besides Jon, there's only one other listed - a bastard son of Cregan's son Brandon with a Fenn girl, of the crannogmen. So I suppose my burning question is are there really that few Stark bastards throughout the line, or is there something really special about the recognized/listed ones that we should know about? Because, if there was indeed a "Son Snow" of Brandon the Daughterless, perhaps WHO the blood mixes with really is important.
I'm just talking here, I have no idea what I'm actually saying.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 2:54:33 GMT
aDwD - Melisandre The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in. This is Melisandre's recollection of the transforming event in her life, when she was changed from a slave girl to the red priestess. She herself is filled with fire; she must drink it in, swallow it down and keep doing so. The ruby at her throat is suggestive that this is the source of her power; or something that connects her to the source and placed such as it is; at her throat reinforces the idea that she must swallow down the fire. You posted the above...sorry, I'm doing the best I can on my phone. Thoros described what he did to Beric as blowing fire down his throat, and Beric awoke to the taste of ashes in his mouth.e It's another means for consuming I suppose and Beric's and Thoros' blood does set a sword on fire. Whether it goes into the lungs or the belly first; it still has to pass the throat. Same with the ice wights. From the lungs to the heart to the body. Mel specifically says she drinks it down, swallows it. I don't see Thoros with a ruby but then again he's not shadowbinder class. Melisandre drinks from the cup of fire. I think the ruby is strictly for casting a glamour to disguise her age.
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Post by min on Jul 27, 2016 3:58:25 GMT
It's another means for consuming I suppose and Beric's and Thoros' blood does set a sword on fire. Whether it goes into the lungs or the belly first; it still has to pass the throat. Same with the ice wights. From the lungs to the heart to the body. Mel specifically says she drinks it down, swallows it. I don't see Thoros with a ruby but then again he's not shadowbinder class. Melisandre drinks from the cup of fire. I think the ruby is strictly for casting a glamour to disguise her age. Definately the ruby is part of her glamour act. She also used one to disguise Mance and Rattleshirt. I would add Stannis' Burning Sword and the Mance's Great Horn when she puts on the show for the Wildlings. She also thinks that it was timely for Jon Snow to put an arrow into Rattleshirt because she was about to go up in flames herself. When she breaks the glamour on Mance; his ruby goes dark (if it is a ruby). Her rock is a channel or focus of some kind; but it connects all those things to her particular fire magic and it may connect her to a fire source having almost overextended on the draw during her big act. Which brings up the question of obsidian which she is more than familiar, having joked about it after Sam tells Stannis about dispatching the Other. Is her ruby a ruby at all, or can she activate frozen fire? Glass candles burn without heat and that's the problem with Stannis' sword after Sam describes it to Aemon. Her 'ruby' could still be a ruby. It pulses with her heartbeat. It represent fire magic in the same way that 'sapphire' blue eyes represent ice magic. The Wall is grey and pitted like a rock, the color of sapphire, or shiny like milkglass. It isn't literally a sapphire. It's a channel or focus of ice magic orders of magnitude greater than Melisandre's ruby. Physically, it's a remnant of a glacier; the front edge of the ice sheet that remains having been 'fixed' in place with binding and ice magic. It serves to dam the killing cold, the cold that raises the dead; drawing, consuming, and containing it. When it was first raised; it consumed it's own tail until only the fixed portion remained becoming the Wall. It shrinks and it grows with the seasons. The NW continuing to add to it's size. It continues to draw the killing cold to itself and it's so massive it affects the seasons. It has to come down; but doing so would release all that killing cold collected and contained for thousands of years and wipe out everything in it's way. All the fires would go out.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 11:25:15 GMT
Was it a So Spake Martin that said the Others can build wondrous things of ice? Was he implying the Others built the Wall? Yet Old Nan said the Children built the Wall after the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn.
Getting back to the side of fire...what about the smoking remains of Valyria? Was the Doom like the Long Night, or was it a destruction of a magical barrier that was the fire version of the Wall?
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Post by min on Jul 27, 2016 12:56:11 GMT
Was it a So Spake Martin that said the Others can build wondrous things of ice? Was he implying the Others built the Wall? Yet Old Nan said the Children built the Wall after the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn. Getting back to the side of fire...what about the smoking remains of Valyria? Was the Doom like the Long Night, or was it a destruction of a magical barrier that was the fire version of the Wall? And another story that Bran the Builder built the Wall. The Wall is one of the Wonders Made by Man according to Tyrion from the book by Lomas Longstrider. Maester Luwin tells Bran that "he can't swallow Old Nan's stories whole" and Bran recalls that sometimes Old Nan changes the stories she tells. But her story of the night that lasted a generation, when the White Walkers came for the first time, tells us something about the Killing Cold, the making and origin of the ice sheet and the Wall at the "end of the world". The ice sheet would be a Wall as far North as you can go; it would literally be the end of the world as a physical barrier. And it would continue advancing unless it was stopped in it's tracks. The ice sheet is made from magic that contains the icy breath of the killing cold; so you have to fight ice magic with ice magic or turn it back on itself. Instead of advancing, it starts to consume itself, swallow it's own tail. The killing cold, the walking dead and their masters would be confined at this point, forced to retreat back to the heart of darkness. The question is who would have this knowledge or capability. That's an open question along with the fire side of the equation.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 13:52:03 GMT
Instead of advancing, it starts to consume itself, swallow it's own tail. You must know how I love any reference to the oroboros! But ice is supposed to preserve with fire consuming, but I think you're on to something regardless.
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Post by min on Jul 27, 2016 14:17:29 GMT
Instead of advancing, it starts to consume itself, swallow it's own tail. You must know how I love any reference to the oroboros! But ice is supposed to preserve with fire consuming, but I think you're on to something regardless. Hah! I knew you'd like that. Fire consumes the body only and ice preserve it. They both take life.
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Post by min on Jul 27, 2016 20:36:59 GMT
Holy Old Hell... you asked for the fire side of the equation Melifeather. Here it is:
The first known appearance of the ouroboros motif is in the Enigmatic Book of the Netherworld, an ancient Egyptian funerary text in KV62, the tomb of Tutankhamun, in the 14th century BC. The text concerns the actions of the god Ra and his union with Osiris in the underworld. In an illustration from this text, two serpents, holding their tails in their mouths, coil around the head and feet of an enormous god, who may represent the unified Ra-Osiris. Both serpents are manifestations of the deity Mehen, who in other funerary texts protects Ra in his underworld journey. The whole divine figure represents the beginning and the end of time.[6] Wikipedia
I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. -Euron Greyjoy
The ice side of the equation:
In Norse mythology, the ouroboros appears as the serpent Jörmungandr, one of the three children of Loki and Angrboda, which grew so large that it could encircle the world and grasp its tail in its teeth.
The House of Black and White connection:
In alchemy, the ouroboros is a sigil. Swiss psychologist Carl Jung saw the ouroboros as an archetype and the basic mandala of alchemy. Jung also defined the relationship of the ouroboros to alchemy:[15]
The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself. The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow. This 'feed-back' process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the Ouroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolizes the One, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima materia which [...] unquestionably stems from man's unconscious. - wikipedia
The Dawn Age:
The ouroboros or oroboros is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail.
The ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity, introspection, or cyclicality,[3] especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished.
The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child.[5]
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 20:59:52 GMT
It has just dawned on me that if the Lord Commander/Night's King and the Lord of Winterfell are both bastards in the current story, then of course the inversion to that is for the two to have been blood (legitimate) brothers in the past. I was allowing the Bael story to cloud my reasoning...I just wanted to make that one fit too, dammit! lol
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 27, 2016 21:11:48 GMT
Holy Old Hell... you asked for the fire side of the equation Melifeather. Here it is: The first known appearance of the ouroboros motif is in the Enigmatic Book of the Netherworld, an ancient Egyptian funerary text in KV62, the tomb of Tutankhamun, in the 14th century BC. The text concerns the actions of the god Ra and his union with Osiris in the underworld. In an illustration from this text, two serpents, holding their tails in their mouths, coil around the head and feet of an enormous god, who may represent the unified Ra-Osiris. Both serpents are manifestations of the deity Mehen, who in other funerary texts protects Ra in his underworld journey. The whole divine figure represents the beginning and the end of time.[6] Wikipedia I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. -Euron Greyjoy The ice side of the equation: In Norse mythology, the ouroboros appears as the serpent Jörmungandr, one of the three children of Loki and Angrboda, which grew so large that it could encircle the world and grasp its tail in its teeth.The House of Black and White connection: In alchemy, the ouroboros is a sigil. Swiss psychologist Carl Jung saw the ouroboros as an archetype and the basic mandala of alchemy. Jung also defined the relationship of the ouroboros to alchemy:[15] The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself. The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow. This 'feed-back' process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the Ouroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolizes the One, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima materia which [...] unquestionably stems from man's unconscious. - wikipedia The Dawn Age: The ouroboros or oroboros is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. The ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity, introspection, or cyclicality,[3] especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished. The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child.[5] Yes! Thank you for this. I have read some of that and used it in the beginning of my Eating the Dragon's Tail essay. I will be revising and rewriting it for the Heresy Centennial project, so I hope you won't mind if I use some of this?
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Post by min on Jul 27, 2016 21:34:16 GMT
Holy Old Hell... you asked for the fire side of the equation Melifeather. Here it is: The first known appearance of the ouroboros motif is in the Enigmatic Book of the Netherworld, an ancient Egyptian funerary text in KV62, the tomb of Tutankhamun, in the 14th century BC. The text concerns the actions of the god Ra and his union with Osiris in the underworld. In an illustration from this text, two serpents, holding their tails in their mouths, coil around the head and feet of an enormous god, who may represent the unified Ra-Osiris. Both serpents are manifestations of the deity Mehen, who in other funerary texts protects Ra in his underworld journey. The whole divine figure represents the beginning and the end of time.[6] Wikipedia I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. -Euron Greyjoy The ice side of the equation: In Norse mythology, the ouroboros appears as the serpent Jörmungandr, one of the three children of Loki and Angrboda, which grew so large that it could encircle the world and grasp its tail in its teeth.The House of Black and White connection: In alchemy, the ouroboros is a sigil. Swiss psychologist Carl Jung saw the ouroboros as an archetype and the basic mandala of alchemy. Jung also defined the relationship of the ouroboros to alchemy:[15] The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself. The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow. This 'feed-back' process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the Ouroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolizes the One, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima materia which [...] unquestionably stems from man's unconscious. - wikipedia The Dawn Age: The ouroboros or oroboros is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. The ouroboros often symbolizes self-reflexivity, introspection, or cyclicality,[3] especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things such as the phoenix which operate in cycles that begin anew as soon as they end. It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting from the beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished. The Jungian psychologist Erich Neumann writes of it as a representation of the pre-ego "dawn state", depicting the undifferentiated infancy experience of both mankind and the individual child.[5] Yes! Thank you for this. I have read some of that and used it in the beginning of my Eating the Dragon's Tail essay. I will be revising and rewriting it for the Heresy Centennial project, so I hope you won't mind if I use some of this? Not at all! I jumped the gun and posted my notes in reply to Black Crow's post. So no essay from me. LOL
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 28, 2016 0:24:12 GMT
Did you PM him about an essay?
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Post by min on Jul 28, 2016 1:07:08 GMT
No, I was thinking about it but it's redundant as a topic.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Jul 28, 2016 1:38:51 GMT
Still trying to catch up on this thread. Why must there be work when there is so much to read, write and think on?
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 28, 2016 10:28:25 GMT
No, I was thinking about it but it's redundant as a topic. The Wall is one of the topics. You should ask him if he has anyone assigned to that topic already. You already have two threads about the Wall: The Hinges thread, and this one. You could easily use info you've already gathered.
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