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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 18:04:15 GMT
?Que? Not following. Given that Black Mesa is in George's neck of the woods, I thought he might have drawn some inspiration for the wall/taking the Black, etc. A melding of Black Mesa with Hadrian's Wall & the Black Watch, etc. Ah I see where you're going with that now, sorry. Yes that's a definite possibility given how close the area is to Martin. What I got from the description was the similarity of the Fist and the place where Drogon takes Dany at the end of Dance. Both are described as fists jutting out of earth. I may be misremembering but the plateau Drogon makes his lair in has a flat top and steep sides that Dany has to carefully descend in order to reach water.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 18:25:21 GMT
You misunderstood me. First the Long Night, then the creation of the Wall. The creation of the Wall would have consumed all the cold air, snow, and ice, and as it sucked all that cold air, warm air filled it's wake. So as the Wall was being built, that whoosh...an extreme draft, like being pulled up a chimney...imagine Westeros as the chimney with the Wall at the top pulling the cold air to it, and the south is the base where the fire is. The air being drawn up the chimney brings the fire to a blaze down below. Heh, I think you misunderstood me too. I get and agree with what you're saying. In fact there is real life evidence of the effects you describe. Archaeologist have found evidence of large populations of woolly mammoths living around the areas where there is evidence of large glacial masses. They've also found tools from neolithic man giving the implication that they were hunting and living in these areas precisely because the temperatures are warmer there then a being miles away. It's a theory advanced by many that the glacier's ecology is what allowed mankind to survive the ice ages. That being said, I am still after the cause of the Long Night. I like Some Pig's explanation that it was a cataclysmic, super-volcanic, seismic event. The Ice lot then took advantage of the conditions, which are favourable to them since they need the dark and cold. To stop them, whomever it was that built the Wall, also took advantage of this great up-thrust of ice and earth in the area where the Wall is now. I'm not entirely convinced but there are puzzle pieces starting to come together here.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 20:44:33 GMT
What I got from the description was the similarity of the Fist and the place where Drogon takes Dany at the end of Dance. Both are described as fists jutting out of earth. I may be misremembering but the plateau Drogon makes his lair in has a flat top and steep sides that Dany has to carefully descend in order to reach water. Ahhhh.....I will be rereading that passage, then, and checking out some maps! Wanna bet that this lair is within the 'ring'?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 20:52:57 GMT
Ahhhh.....I will be rereading that passage, then, and checking out some maps! Wanna bet that this lair is within the 'ring'? Erm nope I'm sure it is within the ring because IIRC it is northwest of Meereen heading towards the Mother of Mountains.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 21:03:45 GMT
The Ice lot then took advantage of the conditions, which are favourable to them since they need the dark and cold. To stop them, whomever it was that built the Wall, also took advantage of this great up-thrust of ice and earth in the area where the Wall is now. Given that most of our own real-life legends and lore are based on human reaction/adaptation to actual natural/geologic events, this makes perfect sense to me. Many, many (in fact, most) early cultures from all over the world center a great deal of their creation story and mythos around these huge wowsa Earth moments - so if we're talking about early humans from 10-12,000 years ago in a fictional fantasy series, why wouldn't this apply? Plus, a hallmark of these legends is the presence of superpowered hero or deity or some sort (Romulus and Remus, The Great Anaconda Spirit, Rainbow Serpent) doing great deeds, often anthropomorphized but not always. Mythical larger-than-life heroes even appear in later lore, e.g. Paul Bunyan, Samson, etc. However, research shows that these tales of these legendary figures overlap with real natural occurrences - like Paul Bunyan's building a grave for his ox Babe creating the Black Hills of South Dakota. Point being, I think this real-world pattern is one that's being utilized in-story, so instead of concentrating on real actual people and their deeds, we should perhaps be tying those people and deeds to real physical and geological occurrences that a mythos could be tailored around.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 21:28:58 GMT
More word vomit.
Black and bloody tide. Black and red flowing in. Lava.
Where do most volcanic eruptions - up to 80% - take place? In the deep ocean.
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Post by Melifeather on Jul 30, 2016 21:43:08 GMT
Oh geez! If Hardhome erupts that'll blow a hole in the Wall!
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 21:57:42 GMT
I've always had the suspicion that the towers by the sea where Pike, not Eastwatch. I know it sounds improbable, but we have very few examples of towers hard by the sea. There is also Oldtown and the Shield Islands. The only other tower by the sea I can think of are the Palestone tower and the Sunspeare, though I don't think its by a the sea. Thing is Oldtown, Starfall and Sunspeare all have a singular tower, not plural. The only ones that have towers is Pike and the Shield Islands.
Wouldn't it be interesting if Melisandre is seeing the Iron Born invasion of the Shield Isles and not the Others attacking?
/derailing
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Post by Ser Duncan on Jul 30, 2016 22:04:32 GMT
Given that most of our own real-life legends and lore are based on human reaction/adaptation to actual natural/geologic events, this makes perfect sense to me. Many, many (in fact, most) early cultures from all over the world center a great deal of their creation story and mythos around these huge wowsa Earth moments - so if we're talking about early humans from 10-12,000 years ago in a fictional fantasy series, why wouldn't this apply? Plus, a hallmark of these legends is the presence of superpowered hero or deity or some sort (Romulus and Remus, The Great Anaconda Spirit, Rainbow Serpent) doing great deeds, often anthropomorphized but not always. Mythical larger-than-life heroes even appear in later lore, e.g. Paul Bunyan, Samson, etc. However, research shows that these tales of these legendary figures overlap with real natural occurrences - like Paul Bunyan's building a grave for his ox Babe creating the Black Hills of South Dakota. Point being, I think this real-world pattern is one that's being utilized in-story, so instead of concentrating on real actual people and their deeds, we should perhaps be tying those people and deeds to real physical and geological occurrences that a mythos could be tailored around. Absolutely. We've got in-world legends just like in the real world. Giants building the Wall? CotF breaking the Arm of Dorne and swamping the Neck with the Hammer of the Waters? All of these are natural, geological occurrences that are attributed to people/beings. And even older more obscure ones like Garth Greenhands, Lan the Clever and the Squishers over in the Riverlands. Martin has taken care to copy our pattern of attributions in his story.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 30, 2016 22:10:06 GMT
INVERSIONS
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 22:10:49 GMT
I've always had the suspicion that the towers by the sea where Pike, not Eastwatch. I know it sounds improbable, but we have very few examples of towers hard by the sea. Pike is possible - I'm in general agreement that it's not Eastwatch, though. Melisandre herself basically thinks that to herself, but gives the "yeah yeah, Eastwatch, sure" answer anyway. Therefore, since everyone will now be expecting an invasion at Eastwatch....it won't happen at Eastwatch.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Jul 30, 2016 22:12:38 GMT
Concave Planetos
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 22:12:46 GMT
Oh, hollow earth with a central sun? KINDOF LIKE THIS EFFING THING RIGHT IN OUR FACES? ETA: Sandwiches, baby.
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Post by min on Jul 30, 2016 22:17:03 GMT
Just want to make a quick note here before I put my head down along the fire and ice theme the group is developing. It occurs to me that MMD ritual did more than resurrect Drogo. What MMD does is wake the ancient powers fire and ice represented by the man limned in flame (R'hllor) and the Great Wolf (future Bran) that Dany sees dancing in the tent. I think what she really did was connect Dany to those ancient powers because what follows is her temporary immunity to fire and waking dragons from stone.
Then we have MMD's prophecy which I think is about the Wall.
Visions of the Past:
1) when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - going back in time to see the history of wall 2) when the seas dry up - the narrow seas dry up and the water is collect into the wall and glacier (viewed in time lapse backwards)
Prophecy of the Future (not a vision - that would be giving away too much):
3) when mountains blow like leaves in the wind - when the mountain of ice over Jon's head is destroyed by the Horn of Joramun and goes up in a cloud of ice crystal - just like Ser Puddles 4) then you will see him (Drogo) and not before - don't know what this means
Consider that Dany has seen the Wall in the House of Undying and Bran saw Vaes Dothrak and the Mother of Mountains in his coma dream. Whatever visions she has of the wall and seas are likely to come from Bran on a 3EC tour of the history of the land. So here might be the connection to the Great Wolf and the meaning of drink from a cup of fire, drink from a cup of ice. The song of ice and fire is Dany's song!
As for the horn of Joramun; consider Jon who wonders if blowing the horn wakes the sleepers; does it put them back to sleep. Consider shadow binding - the binding of something etherel into a form and the dragonbinder horn. If it can bind dragons to your will; does claiming the horn by someone else unbind them when it's blown again? And is the horn of Joramun a binding/unbinding horn? Something that was used to bind the magic to the wall and can undo it. If the land masses were joined at one point; could Joramun's Horn have been made by the red lot given it's age and the runes it contains? She has examined it and knows more about the long night v1.0 than she is saying. Is this why Melisandre says her place is at the Wall as much as Jon's.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Jul 30, 2016 22:33:21 GMT
1) when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east - going back in time to see the history of wall 2) when the seas dry up - the narrow seas dry up and the water is collect into the wall and glacier (viewed in time lapse backwards) Prophecy of the Future (not a vision - that would be giving away too much): 3) when mountains blow like leaves in the wind - when the mountain of ice over Jon's head is destroyed by the Horn of Joramun and goes up in a cloud of ice crystal - just like Ser Puddles 4) then you will see him (Drogo) and not before - don't know what this means LIKE And is the horn of Joramun a binding/unbinding horn? Something that was used to bind the magic to the wall and can undo it. If the land masses were joined at one point; could Joramun's Horn have been made by the red lot given it's age and the runes it contains? She has examined it and knows more about the long night v1.0 than she is saying. Is this why Melisandre says her place is at the Wall as much as Jon's. Somewhere around here I put forth an idea that all of these events that are tied to "song" are in actuality events triggered by sound....specifically, pitch and frequency. If the horn of Joramun produces a sound at just the right vibratory flavor to trigger...something, then I would think it would be an unbinding horn. Opposite to something like a Dragonbinder, which, self-explanatory. I mean, using real world examples, an explosion can trigger an avalanche, and a dog whistle is used for training, right? It's possible that a single horn serves both purposes, though, in sort of a Monkey's Paw kind of way - the pitch/frequency binds one while unbinding the other, hence the danger because you can't unring the bell. I dunno. Anyway, if my newest suspicions are true and these "hinges of the world" are in fact places of tectonic plate connection/subduction and therefore volcanic hotspots, the Wall or the area of the North surrounding Castle Black may be one of largest/most dangerous. If Mel is from a cult that worships what is a vulcan fire god, such would be her place and she would most likely know the real purpose of the horn. Spitballing, fwiw.
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