Meet me by the fork in the river, where we shall dance....
Aug 1, 2016 3:32:34 GMT
Ser Duncan and Maester Flagons like this
Post by queenofwinter on Aug 1, 2016 3:32:34 GMT
(Symbolic representations: Targs/The Trident/Turtles/And why Aegon is "green")
I tend to be drawn to symbolism and abstract ideas. I don't claim to have any answers, or claim to know everything or every story. I just have speculations and observations--not to mention plenty of pots waiting to be cracked! Everything is up for questioning and all in good fun. I'm drawing from both the books and what we saw on the show, in places.
All I ask is that you bear with me--this will get a little (ok...VERY) convoluted and will probably lead to more questions than answers. This is like a brain dump of ideas. LOL.
I definitely think we're going to see something going down in the Riverlands ---maybe some big battle/important event will be held on the Trident--again.
I'm not sure if it'll have something to do with the Others coming that far South, or if it'll be "Targaryen" centered. There has been speculation that we're going to get another "Dance of the Dragons" happening in the story. I'm a believer that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son (the possible PTWP--but it could be something that's fulfilled by multiple people) and that Dany is indeed Rhaegar's sister. (I know some people here aren't of that mind).
If Jon ever makes it South away from the Winterfell and the Wall, will we see a meet-up or situation involving him, Dany and Aegon? At this point in the story we don't know if Aegon is the real deal (or a Blackfyre/Illyrio's son/Ashara Dayne's son, etc). Some of my work points to yes, some to no. And personally, I feel it can go almost any way, but am going to lean towards him being legit.
There's the "Dragon Has Three Heads" bit of the prophecy. How's that going to work out? And what about Dragonriders? Mirrors to the Conquest, etc? Right now Dany is the only person (that we know of), who has dragons. To my knowledge the only people who have ridden dragons are Targaryen's or people who have some kind of dragon blood in them. They have to be some sort of Targ--this means, no Arya or anyone riding dragons. (Though there is the dragonhorn....can only Targ's use it and not fry to a crisp--we don't know.)
I have no idea if this has been talked about before but here we go!
Not sure if anyone here is familiar with the concept of Wu Xing (the Chinese/Taoist Theory of the 5 Elements; those elements being: Earth, Fire, Water, Wood and Metal). It can be used to describe states in nature, along with other things.
In Wu Xing we have the following representations as to colors, directions, elements and seasons:
Red --South--Fire--Summer
Blue(or Black) --North --Water--Winter
Green --East--Wood--Spring
White--West--Metal--Autumn
Yellow--Center (considered the center of the "cosmos")--Earth--and it is associated with the turn of each of the seasons
There are also mythological creatures that have been incorporated into the 5 element system, that are said to be guardians of each direction:
Vermilion Bird of the South represents Fire
Black Turtle* (or Dark Warrior*) of the North represents Water
Azure Dragon of the East represents Wood
White Tiger of the West represents Metal
Yellow Dragon of the Center is said to represent Earth
*(Side note: Xuan Wu is called the Dark Warrior in Chinese legends. In the Chinese novel Journey to the West, Xuan Wu was a King of the North.... Legends state: Xuan Wu was the prince of a Chinese ruler but was not interested in taking the throne, opting instead to leave his parents at age 16 and study Taoism. According to the legend, he eventually achieved divine status and was worshiped as a deity of the northern sky. Kinda sounds like Jon Snow,right? Jon goes to the NW when he's 14 y/o, eventually becomes Lord Commander, dies and (according to the show at least) is brought back to life, doesn't want to rule but becomes the Northern King, and unbeknownst to him is also a Prince of a ruler (Rhaegar would have been King after Aerys died)...Oh and could be the PtWP.)
The Trident has three forks: The Red fork, the Blue fork and the Green fork.
Which leaves us with:
Red--South--Fire--Summer--Vermillion Bird
Blue(or Black)--North--Water--Winter--Black Turtle/Dark Warrior
Green--East--Wood--Spring--Azure Dragon
My theories are:
Dany is Red/South/Fire/Summer/Vermillion Bird
Jon is Blue(or Black)/North/Water/Winter/Black Turtle/Dark Warrior
Aegon is Green/East/Wood/Spring/Azure Dragon
(Side note: Notice we have no Metal element here? No White Tiger. I'm taking creative license and comparing it to the Lannister Lion. The Lannisters preside over the Westerlands --the West--which is represented by the White Tiger. The season associated with all these factors is Autumn--a time of things withering away and dying. Could this be a clue to the future fall of House Lannister?)
Let me explain about my thoughts on Aegon and his affiliation here: East being Essos, where he was raised---Azure Dragon (the blue hair Aegon currently sports), Spring (young, untried--"green"). I realize Dany was raised in Pentos, in the East, but feel she fits more with the Red/Fire motif than Green/Wood, plus she's already a Queen. (Also thinking of Dany and her "red" door from childhood). I also feel part of Quaith's words to Dany come into play here: "To go north, you must journey south....." (This might mean for her to meet up with Aegon in Southern Westeros or maybe for her to possibly look for allies in Dorne?)
Here are more Aegon (and possibly Jon clues). Note we see hints at the color green and turtles mentioned in chapter 14 in ADWD (Tyrion).
The Rhoyne River, on which the pole boat "Shy Maid" journeys upon is green:
' “The fabled Rhoyne,” said Tyrion when he glimpsed the slow green waterway from atop a rise.'
And:
'It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. “We are blessed,” Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face. “We are blessed, we are blessed.” Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too. Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion … but too late. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. “What was the cause of all that noise?” the Halfmaester asked. “A turtle,” said Tyrion. “A turtle bigger than this boat.” “It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.” And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.'
The Old Man of the River is a lesser god of the Rhoynar. He is the son of Mother Rhoyne, and his form is that of a giant turtle.
Note the usage of the plural KINGS. GRRM could have chosen to say :"Gods and wonders always appear to attend the birth of A KING." Instead he used the plural form here. Could this be another hint as to Aegon being the real deal, along with Jon?
"Roar louder than any warhorn"--that's symbolic of a dragons's roar.
But there is also this:
"The Orphans of the Greenblood": 'They consider themselves to be “orphans” as they are of the Rhoynar and have been orphaned from their “Mother,” the river Rhoyne. '
Pointing to Aegon specifically but interesting enough that everyone-- Aegon, Jon, Dany and Tyrion are all orphans.
Mother Rhoyne 'is the chief goddess of the Rhoynar. She is associated with the river Rhoyne, which the Rhoynar revere. Her waters nourished the Rhoynar since the dawn of days '
Greenblood is also a river in Dorne: The Greenblood is a river in southern Dorne ...the river takes its name from its murky green waters which are slow-moving and shallow. It is formed by the confluence of the Vaith and the Scourge near Godsgrace. Planky Town lies at the Greenblood's mouth on the Summer Sea. The orphans of the Greenblood live on rafts along the river...
Could this also mean to be though, that Aegon is NOT a Targaryen, but a Dane? He's got the looks, the purple eyes, which Jon Connington notes are lighter than Rhaegars, though Targ eye color varies. There being that river in Dorne, plus The wording "dawn of days" perhaps hinting at the sword "Dawn" and being, say, Ashara Dayne's child that supposedly died or another Dayne offspring?
Back to Green now:
The Green Fork of the Trident is, you guessed it, green:
'The river is named after its murky green color, which comes from moss near its swampy source..'
During "The Dance of the Dragons", there were two Targaryen factions, each proclaiming they were the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne: The Blacks and the Greens.
IIRC the Blacks were seen as the true rulers, the Greens the "usurpers".
Black as listed above is corresponding to the North/Winter/ Black Turtle/Dark Warrior----this is Jon.
Green as listed above corresponds to the East/Spring/Wood/Azure Dragon--this is Aegon.
Depending on how Aegon's story is played in the books, we could have a few scenarios going on here. At some point in time, Dany is going to meet Aegon. At some point Jon's parentage is going to come to light. At some point the three of these characters are going to meet.
According to the Westeros ASOIAF Wiki: Aegon was born in 281 or 282, John 283 and Dany 284. If Aegon is the real deal, he would be the ruler by succession. If the "Green" factor hints at Aegon not being Rhaegar's son (and something like a Blackfyre), it would mean Jon would be the rightful ruler, but then we have to factor in that when Rhaegar died, Viserys was declared his successor, who later declared Dany Princess of Dragonstone. Who rules?
We know Winter is Coming and that the real fight isn't about the Iron Throne--it's about the Others, the Dragons and the balance between Ice and Fire. Dany doesn't know that yet, she's thinking she's going to rule Westeros as Queen. What's going to happen when she meets Jon and Aegon? Her supposed dead nephew and the one she never knew she had?
(Possible Wild Card: Some people say Tyion might be a Targaryen. I can see where it might be possible, given what Tywin always said to him about not being his son ("You're no son of mine"), though it wasn't meant in the literal aspect. There could be truth in those words if you believe Joanna Lannister was raped by King Aerys. It was said Tyrion was born with a tail, etc. Plus there is his fascination with dragons. But I could also see the irony in the fact that Tyrion, a dwarf with a great mind, might just be Tywin's natural son. Fun Fact: Tyrion's eyes are two different colors: Black and green! LOL).
So if Aegon is legit, will they decide to put differences aside and pull together to fight off the Others and work together? They could be our Three Dragonriders. The Conquest would be switched around. Instead of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys, we have Daenerys, Jon and Aegon. Two men instead of two women.
If so I'm thinking our lineup will be this:
Drogo--Dany (obviously)
Aegon--Rhaegal
Jon-- Viserion
My thinking:
Since Aegon is represented by Green, Rhaegal is green. There is this quote about Rhaegal:
"The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident.."
Will this mean we'll see Aegon fall on the Trident, like his father? Or will we get an inversion, where things turn out differently? Or will something happen to the dragon--maybe another battle above the God's Eye? There was, during the Age of Heroes, a "Green King of the Gods Eye", he was of the First Men, but it's the symbolism that matters most.
As for Jon and Viserion, Jon is known as "The White Wolf" (on the show). Ghost is white. If he rides a dragon, will it be Viserion, the white one? The one who "has a roar that would send a hundred lions running." (Comparing it to "The Old Man of the River" roaring mentioned earlier).
Also note, if Aegon is Rhaegar's son--this points to all three of them; Dany, Jon and Aegon as being "reborn". Dany reborn in fire, Jon (we're assuming going to be resurrected by Melissandre-fire), and Aegon (it could be that his "return from the dead" is a symbolical return, we don't know yet--but I'm betting he gets a rebirth by fire too in the books).
Another clue could be that Tyrion eats a locust aboard the "Shy Maid". Locusts are a species of grasshoppers. Grasshoppers were thought to be fertility symbols; specifically omens of the birth of a son.
I had more things typed out but I think this is enough for now. Still looking into some other things as well (like there being Targs that have taken the yellow/gold dragon for their sigil), so you might see more on this at another time.
This was interesting to look into and yes, I am crazy. So... have at it!
I tend to be drawn to symbolism and abstract ideas. I don't claim to have any answers, or claim to know everything or every story. I just have speculations and observations--not to mention plenty of pots waiting to be cracked! Everything is up for questioning and all in good fun. I'm drawing from both the books and what we saw on the show, in places.
All I ask is that you bear with me--this will get a little (ok...VERY) convoluted and will probably lead to more questions than answers. This is like a brain dump of ideas. LOL.
I definitely think we're going to see something going down in the Riverlands ---maybe some big battle/important event will be held on the Trident--again.
I'm not sure if it'll have something to do with the Others coming that far South, or if it'll be "Targaryen" centered. There has been speculation that we're going to get another "Dance of the Dragons" happening in the story. I'm a believer that Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son (the possible PTWP--but it could be something that's fulfilled by multiple people) and that Dany is indeed Rhaegar's sister. (I know some people here aren't of that mind).
If Jon ever makes it South away from the Winterfell and the Wall, will we see a meet-up or situation involving him, Dany and Aegon? At this point in the story we don't know if Aegon is the real deal (or a Blackfyre/Illyrio's son/Ashara Dayne's son, etc). Some of my work points to yes, some to no. And personally, I feel it can go almost any way, but am going to lean towards him being legit.
There's the "Dragon Has Three Heads" bit of the prophecy. How's that going to work out? And what about Dragonriders? Mirrors to the Conquest, etc? Right now Dany is the only person (that we know of), who has dragons. To my knowledge the only people who have ridden dragons are Targaryen's or people who have some kind of dragon blood in them. They have to be some sort of Targ--this means, no Arya or anyone riding dragons. (Though there is the dragonhorn....can only Targ's use it and not fry to a crisp--we don't know.)
I have no idea if this has been talked about before but here we go!
Not sure if anyone here is familiar with the concept of Wu Xing (the Chinese/Taoist Theory of the 5 Elements; those elements being: Earth, Fire, Water, Wood and Metal). It can be used to describe states in nature, along with other things.
In Wu Xing we have the following representations as to colors, directions, elements and seasons:
Red --South--Fire--Summer
Blue(or Black) --North --Water--Winter
Green --East--Wood--Spring
White--West--Metal--Autumn
Yellow--Center (considered the center of the "cosmos")--Earth--and it is associated with the turn of each of the seasons
There are also mythological creatures that have been incorporated into the 5 element system, that are said to be guardians of each direction:
Vermilion Bird of the South represents Fire
Black Turtle* (or Dark Warrior*) of the North represents Water
Azure Dragon of the East represents Wood
White Tiger of the West represents Metal
Yellow Dragon of the Center is said to represent Earth
*(Side note: Xuan Wu is called the Dark Warrior in Chinese legends. In the Chinese novel Journey to the West, Xuan Wu was a King of the North.... Legends state: Xuan Wu was the prince of a Chinese ruler but was not interested in taking the throne, opting instead to leave his parents at age 16 and study Taoism. According to the legend, he eventually achieved divine status and was worshiped as a deity of the northern sky. Kinda sounds like Jon Snow,right? Jon goes to the NW when he's 14 y/o, eventually becomes Lord Commander, dies and (according to the show at least) is brought back to life, doesn't want to rule but becomes the Northern King, and unbeknownst to him is also a Prince of a ruler (Rhaegar would have been King after Aerys died)...Oh and could be the PtWP.)
The Trident has three forks: The Red fork, the Blue fork and the Green fork.
Which leaves us with:
Red--South--Fire--Summer--Vermillion Bird
Blue(or Black)--North--Water--Winter--Black Turtle/Dark Warrior
Green--East--Wood--Spring--Azure Dragon
My theories are:
Dany is Red/South/Fire/Summer/Vermillion Bird
Jon is Blue(or Black)/North/Water/Winter/Black Turtle/Dark Warrior
Aegon is Green/East/Wood/Spring/Azure Dragon
(Side note: Notice we have no Metal element here? No White Tiger. I'm taking creative license and comparing it to the Lannister Lion. The Lannisters preside over the Westerlands --the West--which is represented by the White Tiger. The season associated with all these factors is Autumn--a time of things withering away and dying. Could this be a clue to the future fall of House Lannister?)
Let me explain about my thoughts on Aegon and his affiliation here: East being Essos, where he was raised---Azure Dragon (the blue hair Aegon currently sports), Spring (young, untried--"green"). I realize Dany was raised in Pentos, in the East, but feel she fits more with the Red/Fire motif than Green/Wood, plus she's already a Queen. (Also thinking of Dany and her "red" door from childhood). I also feel part of Quaith's words to Dany come into play here: "To go north, you must journey south....." (This might mean for her to meet up with Aegon in Southern Westeros or maybe for her to possibly look for allies in Dorne?)
Here are more Aegon (and possibly Jon clues). Note we see hints at the color green and turtles mentioned in chapter 14 in ADWD (Tyrion).
The Rhoyne River, on which the pole boat "Shy Maid" journeys upon is green:
' “The fabled Rhoyne,” said Tyrion when he glimpsed the slow green waterway from atop a rise.'
And:
'It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs. It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard. “We are blessed,” Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face. “We are blessed, we are blessed.” Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too. Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion … but too late. The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again. “What was the cause of all that noise?” the Halfmaester asked. “A turtle,” said Tyrion. “A turtle bigger than this boat.” “It was him,” cried Yandry. “The Old Man of the River.” And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.'
The Old Man of the River is a lesser god of the Rhoynar. He is the son of Mother Rhoyne, and his form is that of a giant turtle.
Note the usage of the plural KINGS. GRRM could have chosen to say :"Gods and wonders always appear to attend the birth of A KING." Instead he used the plural form here. Could this be another hint as to Aegon being the real deal, along with Jon?
"Roar louder than any warhorn"--that's symbolic of a dragons's roar.
But there is also this:
"The Orphans of the Greenblood": 'They consider themselves to be “orphans” as they are of the Rhoynar and have been orphaned from their “Mother,” the river Rhoyne. '
Pointing to Aegon specifically but interesting enough that everyone-- Aegon, Jon, Dany and Tyrion are all orphans.
Mother Rhoyne 'is the chief goddess of the Rhoynar. She is associated with the river Rhoyne, which the Rhoynar revere. Her waters nourished the Rhoynar since the dawn of days '
Greenblood is also a river in Dorne: The Greenblood is a river in southern Dorne ...the river takes its name from its murky green waters which are slow-moving and shallow. It is formed by the confluence of the Vaith and the Scourge near Godsgrace. Planky Town lies at the Greenblood's mouth on the Summer Sea. The orphans of the Greenblood live on rafts along the river...
Could this also mean to be though, that Aegon is NOT a Targaryen, but a Dane? He's got the looks, the purple eyes, which Jon Connington notes are lighter than Rhaegars, though Targ eye color varies. There being that river in Dorne, plus The wording "dawn of days" perhaps hinting at the sword "Dawn" and being, say, Ashara Dayne's child that supposedly died or another Dayne offspring?
Back to Green now:
The Green Fork of the Trident is, you guessed it, green:
'The river is named after its murky green color, which comes from moss near its swampy source..'
During "The Dance of the Dragons", there were two Targaryen factions, each proclaiming they were the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne: The Blacks and the Greens.
IIRC the Blacks were seen as the true rulers, the Greens the "usurpers".
Black as listed above is corresponding to the North/Winter/ Black Turtle/Dark Warrior----this is Jon.
Green as listed above corresponds to the East/Spring/Wood/Azure Dragon--this is Aegon.
Depending on how Aegon's story is played in the books, we could have a few scenarios going on here. At some point in time, Dany is going to meet Aegon. At some point Jon's parentage is going to come to light. At some point the three of these characters are going to meet.
According to the Westeros ASOIAF Wiki: Aegon was born in 281 or 282, John 283 and Dany 284. If Aegon is the real deal, he would be the ruler by succession. If the "Green" factor hints at Aegon not being Rhaegar's son (and something like a Blackfyre), it would mean Jon would be the rightful ruler, but then we have to factor in that when Rhaegar died, Viserys was declared his successor, who later declared Dany Princess of Dragonstone. Who rules?
We know Winter is Coming and that the real fight isn't about the Iron Throne--it's about the Others, the Dragons and the balance between Ice and Fire. Dany doesn't know that yet, she's thinking she's going to rule Westeros as Queen. What's going to happen when she meets Jon and Aegon? Her supposed dead nephew and the one she never knew she had?
(Possible Wild Card: Some people say Tyion might be a Targaryen. I can see where it might be possible, given what Tywin always said to him about not being his son ("You're no son of mine"), though it wasn't meant in the literal aspect. There could be truth in those words if you believe Joanna Lannister was raped by King Aerys. It was said Tyrion was born with a tail, etc. Plus there is his fascination with dragons. But I could also see the irony in the fact that Tyrion, a dwarf with a great mind, might just be Tywin's natural son. Fun Fact: Tyrion's eyes are two different colors: Black and green! LOL).
So if Aegon is legit, will they decide to put differences aside and pull together to fight off the Others and work together? They could be our Three Dragonriders. The Conquest would be switched around. Instead of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys, we have Daenerys, Jon and Aegon. Two men instead of two women.
If so I'm thinking our lineup will be this:
Drogo--Dany (obviously)
Aegon--Rhaegal
Jon-- Viserion
My thinking:
Since Aegon is represented by Green, Rhaegal is green. There is this quote about Rhaegal:
"The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident.."
Will this mean we'll see Aegon fall on the Trident, like his father? Or will we get an inversion, where things turn out differently? Or will something happen to the dragon--maybe another battle above the God's Eye? There was, during the Age of Heroes, a "Green King of the Gods Eye", he was of the First Men, but it's the symbolism that matters most.
As for Jon and Viserion, Jon is known as "The White Wolf" (on the show). Ghost is white. If he rides a dragon, will it be Viserion, the white one? The one who "has a roar that would send a hundred lions running." (Comparing it to "The Old Man of the River" roaring mentioned earlier).
Also note, if Aegon is Rhaegar's son--this points to all three of them; Dany, Jon and Aegon as being "reborn". Dany reborn in fire, Jon (we're assuming going to be resurrected by Melissandre-fire), and Aegon (it could be that his "return from the dead" is a symbolical return, we don't know yet--but I'm betting he gets a rebirth by fire too in the books).
Another clue could be that Tyrion eats a locust aboard the "Shy Maid". Locusts are a species of grasshoppers. Grasshoppers were thought to be fertility symbols; specifically omens of the birth of a son.
I had more things typed out but I think this is enough for now. Still looking into some other things as well (like there being Targs that have taken the yellow/gold dragon for their sigil), so you might see more on this at another time.
This was interesting to look into and yes, I am crazy. So... have at it!