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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 1, 2016 21:09:32 GMT
tucu, there is no evidence that greenseers can slip into the trees without wedding them first. There is evidence of skinchangers slipping into trees though. Varamyr. But the point is that Bran at this moment in straight time has no connections to the trees. He's just now opened his third eye and realised he can slip into Summer whenever he likes. He's not once slipped into the Winterfell heart tree. He won't do that until he's married to the trees. So either he's not strong enough to do this yet or Bran is already messing with time after he's learned to use the weirnet. Although there is the outside possibility he accidentally slipped into the trees without knowing he's done so. Bran doesn't recall being a tree when he remembers speaking to Jon and touching Ghost. Which is odd in itself.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 21:11:10 GMT
tucu, there is no evidence that greenseers can slip into the trees without wedding them first. The dream could be evidence of that or it could be evidence of greenseers having the power to affect the past. We need more examples of greenseer actions in order to remove the ambiguity.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 21:12:33 GMT
tucu, there is no evidence that greenseers can slip into the trees without wedding them first. There is evidence of skinchangers slipping into trees though. Varamyr. But the point is that Bran at this moment in straight time has no connections to the trees. He's just now opened his third eye and realised he can slip into Summer whenever he likes. He's not once slipped into the Winterfell heart tree. He won't do that until he's married to the trees. So either he's not strong enough to do this yet or Bran is already messing with time after he's learned to use the weirnet. Although there is the outside possibility he accidentally slipped into the trees without knowing he's done so. Bran doesn't recall being a tree when he remembers speaking to Jon and touching Ghost. Which is odd in itself. Varamyr's spirit was just passing through. He passed through a lot of things when he was being carried off by the wind, until he got close to One Eye. He still had a connection to One Eye and that's how he was drawn in. A skinchanger or greenseer needs a connection in order to remain inside their host. The weirwood paste makes it possible to stay.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 21:14:59 GMT
tucu, there is no evidence that greenseers can slip into the trees without wedding them first. The dream could be evidence of that or it could be evidence of greenseers having the power to affect the past. We need more examples of greenseer actions to remove the ambiguity. I agree that greenseers can affect the past...which is different than changing the past. I think they can only affect things that will change the future outcome of something. It's hard to think of an example, but maybe a baby swap is one of them since Jon did a baby swap? That way the two mothers both gave birth to children, but maybe he changed who the babies were? Just spitballing on this last one!
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 1, 2016 21:29:21 GMT
This goes back to the unclear power of greenseers. Can the actions of a fully trained greenseer ripple into the past?, BR says no but he might not be a great greenseer. Or can an untrained greenseer's subconsciousness contact skinchangers in their dreams? We don't know, but this might be an example of that Yep, this is the problem. We've got no real confirmation of any of this. Every example of Bran possibly affecting the past or even the present is purposely made ambiguous by Martin. Did Ned hear Bran call out Father? Or did Ned turn his head because he heard Catelyn approaching? Did Arya hear her father's voice or Bran's voice coming from the weirwood at Harrenhal? Or was that just her own mind sending back things both Sirio and Ned said? Did Theon actually hear Bran call his name? Or was that also just Theon's state of despair? Frankly it's like
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 21:38:14 GMT
The weirwoods have such a weird concept of time that is hard get away from the idea that GRRM's universe is not a chaotic one but a fate one. A couple of quotes from Bloodraven: "A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one"
"The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."
So past, present and future are one and the past can't be changed. Then you should not be able to change the present or future either.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 1, 2016 21:41:01 GMT
So past, present and future are one and the past can't be changed. Then you should not be able to change the present or future either. Then why watch at all?
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 22:06:30 GMT
So past, present and future are one and the past can't be changed. Then you should not be able to change the present or future either. Then why watch at all? Because it is boring being a tree . GRRM might have chosen to use the saxon/norse concept of fate or destiny. Wyrd in Old English and Uror in Old Norse. Wyrd is the origin of the word weird in modern english. So maybe a weirwood is a tree of fate or destiny. In Norse mythology Uror controls destiny/fate with the other Norns in a Well of Uror (Well of destiny) located beneath the tree Yggdrassil Edit: BTW, the cycle of the water moving between the Well of Uror to Yggdrassil and then back to the Well as dew is a form of a wheel of time.
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 22:07:22 GMT
I caught up with the discussion at Westeros and I think some very good points were made about Bloodraven. I don't have the kind of recall that you and others have regarding the books. Did BR not say that he had tried to bring someone back? But he couldn't do it. Hence his warning to Bran about his father? I think there is more to it than that since BC's comments about the undead driven by hatred and possibly another agency citing Lady Stoneheart.
But then we have warnings from MMD about the price to be paid for interfering with Drogo's fate. Arya referring to Jaqen H'Gar as a grumkin along with Old Nan's warning about 3 wishes and being careful about the last. IN the monkey's paw story; it's No One who shows up at the door for the last wish. Martin seems to have modeled FM after this fable. It's the terrible price to be paid or the terrible knowledge contained in the third eye - one's own death. Possibly what Bran saw when he looked into the heart of darkness; like Jojen, his own death.
We don't really know about Bran's untapped power at this point. Tree Bran is a big flag to me because it's unique. The difference between Bloodraven and Bran might be the warg bond or wolf blood itself. MMD calls up the old powers: the man limned in flame and the great wolf.
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 22:43:44 GMT
I caught up with the discussion at Westeros and I think some very good points were made about Bloodraven. I don't have the kind of recall that you and others have regarding the books. Did BR not say that he had tried to bring someone back? But he couldn't do it. Hence his warning to Bran about his father? I think there is more to it than that since BC's comments about the undead driven by hatred and possibly another agency citing Lady Stoneheart. BR said he tried unsuccesfully to contact people in his past. Here is the quote: "You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it" So it seems that he tried to contact Daeron, Bittersteel and Shiera.
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 23:12:05 GMT
Interesting. So then what is really significant about TreeBran is that he and Jon can communicate in wolf dreams because of their strong wolf blood or warg abilities. Where I really want to get with this is whether or not Bran communicated with Ned at the Tower of Joy through Lyanna. This dream might not be about going back in time but more about whether it's possible to communicate with someone in the past. Jojen's fever dreams come to mind and the statement somewhere that Lyanna had more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings. It's not necessary to skinchange Lyanna but only to enter her fever dream and speak to Ned. Specifically, extracting three promises from Ned.
Leaf also says that Bran has been promised to them for 200 years. Isn't there a prophecy going back 200 years from someone on the Targ bloodline about the prince who is promised?
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 23:16:55 GMT
So, I found another section that could be interpreted as future Bran's actions. This is from Arya X in ACoK, just before she decides to make her escape from Harrenhal.
In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. "Tell me what to do, you gods," she prayed.
For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.
"But there is no pack," she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. "I'm not even me now, I'm Nan."
"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you."
"The wolf blood." Arya remembered now. "I'll be as strong as Robb. I said I would." She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.
That night she lay in her narrow bed upon the scratchy straw, listening to the voices of the living and the dead whisper and argue as she waited for the moon to rise. They were the only voices she trusted anymore. She could hear the sound of her own breath, and the wolves as well, a great pack of them now. They are closer than the one I heard in the godswood, she thought. They are calling to me.
Notice that the first sound she hears after her pray is from a very distant lonely wolf ("from somewhere out in the world"). Then the weirwood reminds her Ned's quote about the wolf pack and that she is Arya Stark of Winterfell, not Nan. You can also notice that the pack of wolves roaming the Riverlands are closer than the lonely wolf at the beggining. So, was this Bran, the Tree/Wolf, contacting her? This one is harder to argue that came from present Bran as he didn't know about Ned's talk with Arya.
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Post by min on Aug 1, 2016 23:27:04 GMT
Oh my! It's another example that establishes the importance of the wolf blood! It would be tough to argue that this is Bran but the wierwood is speaking in her mind! And don't people say she looks like Aunt Lyanna?
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tucu
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Post by tucu on Aug 1, 2016 23:48:57 GMT
I find hard to find arguments against those actions belonging to future Bran, the wolf/greenseer. We would need to dismiss the howling lonely wolf that made her dizzy as just a coincidence; and then assume that BR or another greenseer encouraged Arya to remember her identity.
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 0:01:16 GMT
I find hard to find arguments against those actions belonging to future Bran, the wolf/greenseer. We would need to dismiss the howling lonely wolf that made her dizzy as just a coincidence; and then assume that BR or another greenseer encouraged Arya to remember her identity. I'm going to take a break and rest and pick this up tomorrow if this is ok with you. My head is spinning with the Arya quote. And I'm going to pull some stuff from another thread.
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