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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 0:59:23 GMT
I don't think the wierbran episode with Jon is about the ability to travel in time; but the ability to communicate with Starks who are strong in the wolf blood. Where I really want to get with this is whether or not Bran communicated with Ned in the past at the ToJ and if it was Bran who extracted the promises from Ned and bound him to silence. We're talking about a fever dream and a state of delirium where she might repeat the words of her dream encounter with Bran to Ned. Of course Greenseers come to you in dreams or fever dreams or comas. But can they speak to you in the past. BR says no but perhaps this has more to do with the wolf blood and the warg bond and this is what the wierBran passage is about. It may be possible in the past if the blood is strong.
The quote Tucu found above is blowing my mind. The wierwood speaks to Arya in her mind. Specifically the bit about her wolf blood being strong. This seems like it could also be Bran. And what have we been told about Arya? That she looks and behaves like Aunt Lyanna. What are we told about Lyanna - that she has more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings. Isn't she as fierce as Arya who want to use a sword, Arya who defended the butcher's boy from Joffrey... The Knight of the laughing tree.
So this passage might not be specifically about Bran unbound by time but being able to communicate with the wolf blood and the strength of the wolfblood. We know greenseers can send greendreams and can look at past events. Bran is certain that Ned almost heard him in spite of what Bloodraven says. Is this really wishful thinking on Bran's part.
I have to revise the premise.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 1:19:18 GMT
So, I found another section that could be interpreted as future Bran's actions. This is from Arya X in ACoK, just before she decides to make her escape from Harrenhal. Yes this is what I was talking about with all the instances of possible Bran interference. If it is future Bran it would not be so difficult for him to have watched the conversation between Arya and Ned, since Bran seems quite draw to Ned to begin with. It was Bran (and Rickon) that Ned chose to speak to when he died. Then again is this really Ned reaching out beyond the grave to speak to his wolf blooded daughter? It's hard to pinpoint which one it could be because the scenes are just that ambiguous.
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tucu
Black Iron
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 1:31:46 GMT
I don't think the wierbran episode with Jon is about the ability to travel in time; but the ability to communicate with Starks who are strong in the wolf blood. Where I really want to get with this is whether or not Bran communicated with Ned in the past at the ToJ and if it was Bran who extracted the promises from Ned and bound him to silence. We're talking about a fever dream and a state of delirium where she might repeat the words of her dream encounter with Bran to Ned. Of course Greenseers come to you in dreams or fever dreams or comas. But can they speak to you in the past. BR says no but perhaps this has more to do with the wolf blood and the warg bond and this is what the wierBran passage is about. It may be possible in the past if the blood is strong. The quote Tucu found above is blowing my mind. The wierwood speaks to Arya in her mind. Specifically the bit about her wolf blood being strong. This seems like it could also be Bran. And what have we been told about Arya? That she looks and behaves like Aunt Lyanna. What are we told about Lyanna - that she has more of the wolf blood in her than her siblings. Isn't she as fierce as Arya who want to use a sword, Arya who defended the butcher's boy from Joffrey... The Knight of the laughing tree. So this passage might not be specifically about Bran unbound by time but being able to communicate with the wolf blood and the strength of the wolfblood. We know greenseers can send greendreams and can look at past events. Bran is certain that Ned almost heard him in spite of what Bloodraven says. Is this really wishful thinking on Bran's part. I have to revise the premise. So are you thinking that these are not examples of greenseer time travelling powers, but the power of wolf blood? Maybe some type of share consciousness between Starks and their direwolves? I could get into this explanation. Bran being the alpha wolf and being able to access a shared memory and contact other members. This could link to my suspicion of the Others behaving like a wolf pack. In the GoT, 6 WWs confront Waymar Royce, but only one fights him (one WW for each Stark kid and direwolf). Tormund then tells about the Others killing outriders and people that fell behind. The behaviour is similar to what a wolf pack would do, including the herding the wildlings towards The Wall.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 3:24:29 GMT
Lady Dyanna mentioned that the Wall blocks skinchanging if the host is on the other side from the skinchanger. Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall and they didn't reconnect until they were both on the same side of the Wall again, which means that if Jon was in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin, then Bran had to have been north of the Wall as well.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 5:10:00 GMT
Lady Dyanna mentioned that the Wall blocks skinchanging if the host is on the other side from the skinchanger. Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall and they didn't reconnect until they were both on the same side of the Wall again, which means that if Jon was in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin, then Bran had to have been north of the Wall as well. That is not a theory I subscribe to. If the Wall is what is doing the blocking then why could Jon not feel Ghost as soon as Ghost got the message to scram? This is before they climb the Wall with the raiding party. Additionally Jon spends a considerable amount of time North of the Wall in his parley with Mance and he even yearns to have his connection with Ghost back when he sees Varamyr, and yet he does not feel Ghost at all. Only when Ghost decides to reach out to Jon does he realise he can feel him again. Most interesting is that Ghost initiates the contact, not Jon. No other wolf does that with their partners, it is always the human that initiates, either consciously or while in their sleep. The small but important plot point is not the Wall, it's the fact that Bran's touch on Ghost opened Ghost's 3rd eye and now Ghost can initiate and block contact.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 10:32:35 GMT
Lady Dyanna mentioned that the Wall blocks skinchanging if the host is on the other side from the skinchanger. Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall and they didn't reconnect until they were both on the same side of the Wall again, which means that if Jon was in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin, then Bran had to have been north of the Wall as well. That is not a theory I subscribe to. If the Wall is what is doing the blocking then why could Jon not feel Ghost as soon as Ghost got the message to scram? This is before they climb the Wall with the raiding party. Additionally Jon spends a considerable amount of time North of the Wall in his parley with Mance and he even yearns to have his connection with Ghost back when he sees Varamyr, and yet he does not feel Ghost at all. Only when Ghost decides to reach out to Jon does he realise he can feel him again. Most interesting is that Ghost initiates the contact, not Jon. No other wolf does that with their partners, it is always the human that initiates, either consciously or while in their sleep. The small but important plot point is not the Wall, it's the fact that Bran's touch on Ghost opened Ghost's 3rd eye and now Ghost can initiate and block contact. And I don't ascribe to this theory! Jon sent Ghost away, but I don't recall him wondered about Ghost while he was with the wildlings on the north side of the Wall. I think distance matters though. If Ghost was miles off hunting, Jon wouldn't sense him until he got close enough. Then he climbed the Wall and was on the south side, which blocked access, and he didn't reconnect until he was north of the Wall again, even though he returned to the Watch on the south side. What Jon did was necessary and likely "old-god approved", and the reasoning you and others have used about Ghost withholding the connection just doesn't make sense to me. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 12:59:39 GMT
Lady Dyanna mentioned that the Wall blocks skinchanging if the host is on the other side from the skinchanger. Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall and they didn't reconnect until they were both on the same side of the Wall again, which means that if Jon was in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin, then Bran had to have been north of the Wall as well. So if Summer was on the south side of the Wall with Bran in the Crypts and Jon was on the North side with Ghost; then Summer-Bran couldn't contact Ghost-Jon in the way that wierBran did; but only sense where his brothers and sister were? A small but significant plot device? Bran was never afraid in the crypts but did he ever like it down there? They can't see you, but you can see them. Almost sounds like a child's game where you hide in the dark. Certainly Bran was afraid of Theon and hid in the dark of the Crypts before making an escape. But is Bran really talking about being afraid in the Cave of the Greenseer and that darkness. BR tells Bran that the darkness will become his cloak. Wasn't there a bit of mischievousness in Bran when he spoke to Theon at Ramsey's wedding? Theon's impression of the Winterfell Tree is that it is laughing.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 13:57:30 GMT
Lady Dyanna mentioned that the Wall blocks skinchanging if the host is on the other side from the skinchanger. Jon and Ghost were separated by the Wall and they didn't reconnect until they were both on the same side of the Wall again, which means that if Jon was in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin, then Bran had to have been north of the Wall as well. So if Summer was on the south side of the Wall with Bran in the Crypts and Jon was on the North side with Ghost; then Summer-Bran couldn't contact Ghost-Jon in the way that wierBran did; but only sense where his brothers and sister were? A small but significant plot device? Bran was never afraid in the crypts but did he ever like it down there? They can't see you, but you can see them. Almost sounds like a child's game where you hide in the dark. Certainly Bran was afraid of Theon and hid in the dark of the Crypts before making an escape. But is Bran really talking about being afraid in the Cave of the Greenseer and that darkness. BR tells Bran that the darkness will become his cloak. Wasn't there a bit of mischievousness in Bran when he spoke to Theon at Ramsey's wedding? Theon's impression of the Winterfell Tree is that it is laughing. In a nutshell, yes. I think if Bran/Summer and Jon/Ghost were on separate sides of the Wall they cannot communicate. They may be able to sense where the other one is, but you need weirwoods to bypass the Wall's warding. However...hmm, this is tricky because I believe the ward is now open. It was opened when Dany broke the wheel with Drogo's funeral pyre, so there should be no ward in place. When Bran said he liked the dark, I took that as referring to the cave with Bloodraven.
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tucu
Black Iron
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 13:59:55 GMT
That is not a theory I subscribe to. If the Wall is what is doing the blocking then why could Jon not feel Ghost as soon as Ghost got the message to scram? This is before they climb the Wall with the raiding party. Additionally Jon spends a considerable amount of time North of the Wall in his parley with Mance and he even yearns to have his connection with Ghost back when he sees Varamyr, and yet he does not feel Ghost at all. Only when Ghost decides to reach out to Jon does he realise he can feel him again. Most interesting is that Ghost initiates the contact, not Jon. No other wolf does that with their partners, it is always the human that initiates, either consciously or while in their sleep. The small but important plot point is not the Wall, it's the fact that Bran's touch on Ghost opened Ghost's 3rd eye and now Ghost can initiate and block contact. And I don't ascribe to this theory! Jon sent Ghost away, but I don't recall him wondered about Ghost while he was with the wildlings on the north side of the Wall. I think distance matters though. If Ghost was miles off hunting, Jon wouldn't sense him until he got close enough. Then he climbed the Wall and was on the south side, which blocked access, and he didn't reconnect until he was north of the Wall again, even though he returned to the Watch on the south side. What Jon did was necessary and likely "old-god approved", and the reasoning you and others have used about Ghost withholding the connection just doesn't make sense to me. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. The main problem with the idea that The Wall blocks skinchanging is that it seems very selective on what it blocks. It seems to block the link of the wolf pack, but not the link of normal skinchangers. Borroq crosses The Wall with his enourmous boar without incident; and Mormont's raven exhibits signs of being under the control of a skinchanger or greenseer. Then we have the wights that operated fine south of The Wall and this seems like an advanced form of icy skinchanging. There is also the problem mentioned before of Jon not sensing Ghost when he was north of the Wall before Stannis' attack. He only reconnected with Jon at a later date when he was a few meters away.
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 14:09:49 GMT
There is also Coldhands statement that Bran must remain hidden from the world so nobody comes looking for him. The question remains: does the wall block direct communication between summer-Bran and ghost-Jon: Is this why we have never seen any direct communication before wier-Bran appears to Jon? Considering how well buried the connection between Bran in the crypts and Jon at the Skirling pass is in the text; is this the small but significant plot device that proves that weir-Bran happens after he arrives at Bloodraven's cave. The significant thing about blocking skinchanging is that they cannot connect or communicate directly with the exception that the direwolves can sense each other regardless of the Wall.
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tucu
Black Iron
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 15:04:19 GMT
Certainly Bran was afraid of Theon and hid in the dark of the Crypts before making an escape. But is Bran really talking about being afraid in the Cave of the Greenseer and that darkness. BR tells Bran that the darkness will become his cloak. Wasn't there a bit of mischievousness in Bran when he spoke to Theon at Ramsey's wedding? Theon's impression of the Winterfell Tree is that it is laughing. Bran doesn't mock Theon; he is just not very good at talking to him via the wind yet. The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."
The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."
A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.
They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"
Then the spearwives show up and mock him.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 15:46:36 GMT
Borroq crosses The Wall with his enourmous boar without incident; and Mormont's raven exhibits signs of being under the control of a skinchanger or greenseer. Then we have the wights that operated fine south of The Wall and this seems like an advanced form of icy skinchanging. There is also the problem mentioned before of Jon not sensing Ghost when he was north of the Wall before Stannis' attack. He only reconnected with Jon at a later date when he was a few meters away. You'll have to correct me about Borroq's boar, but he didn't pass until Jon invited him through the tunnel, right? Mormont's Raven is Bloodraven...at least I strongly suspect Bloodraven is skinchanging him. I just think Jon and Ghost were too far apart to make the connection. When he first left with Jeor Mormont to go north, many times Ghost ran off and Jon didn't know where he was, and nobody looks to that for any special meaning other than he was off hunting.
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tucu
Black Iron
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 15:57:56 GMT
Borroq crosses The Wall with his enourmous boar without incident; and Mormont's raven exhibits signs of being under the control of a skinchanger or greenseer. Then we have the wights that operated fine south of The Wall and this seems like an advanced form of icy skinchanging. There is also the problem mentioned before of Jon not sensing Ghost when he was north of the Wall before Stannis' attack. He only reconnected with Jon at a later date when he was a few meters away. You'll have to correct me about Borroq's boar, but he didn't pass until Jon invited him through the tunnel, right? Mormont's Raven is Bloodraven...at least I strongly suspect Bloodraven is skinchanging him. I just think Jon and Ghost were too far apart to make the connection. When he first left with Jeor Mormont to go north, many times Ghost ran off and Jon didn't know where he was, and nobody looks to that for any special meaning other than he was off hunting. Yes, Borroq and his boar crossed peacefully as part of Tormund's group. While crossing there was no incident; no sign of a lost connection to his thrall. Unlike Varamyr's thralls that reacted badly when Melissandre broke their link by burning the eagle. Distance doesn't seem to be a factor on maintaining the wolf pack link. Arya is still in contact with Nymeria from Braavos.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 16:23:04 GMT
Jon sent Ghost away, but I don't recall him wondered about Ghost while he was with the wildlings on the north side of the Wall. He immediately sits and wonders if Ghost understood him and would the wolf make it back to Castle Black safely. As he worrying on this he hears a rustling from behind and thinks Ghost! He's returned. Turns out not to be, and he goes back to thinking about the wolf until they come tell him it's time to climb. Jon doesn't think of Ghost again until the fight at Queenscrown when Summer comes to his rescue with Shaggy Dog. It's only on his way back to CB that he thinks I've not felt the wolf since we climbed. But he also doesn't feel the wolf north of the Wall, so more is going on here than distance or the Wall. I just think Jon and Ghost were too far apart to make the connection. When he first left with Jeor Mormont to go north, many times Ghost ran off and Jon didn't know where he was, and nobody looks to that for any special meaning other than he was off hunting. Distance does not matter to a skinchanger. If that were true than Arya would never be able to have wolf dreams in Braavos while Nymeria is in Frey territory and all over the Riverlands. As to the other, about the hunting, that is not entirely true. Jon will call for Ghost and the wolf will not return because he's hunting but it's important to note that repeatedly in the books Jon will be thinking of Ghost and moments later he'll appear. What's significant about the time right before he climbs the Wall is that Jon is thinking of Ghost, he doesn't appear, and Jon gets startled by it.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 16:23:26 GMT
You'll have to correct me about Borroq's boar, but he didn't pass until Jon invited him through the tunnel, right? Mormont's Raven is Bloodraven...at least I strongly suspect Bloodraven is skinchanging him. I just think Jon and Ghost were too far apart to make the connection. When he first left with Jeor Mormont to go north, many times Ghost ran off and Jon didn't know where he was, and nobody looks to that for any special meaning other than he was off hunting. Yes, Borroq and his boar crossed peacefully as part of Tormund's group. While crossing there was no incident; no sign of a lost connection to his thrall. Unlike Varamyr's thralls that reacted badly when Melissandre broke their link by burning the eagle. Distance doesn't seem to be a factor on maintaining the wolf pack link. Arya is still in contact with Nymeria from Braavos. Borroq and his boar stayed together. They were never separated. When is Arya's last wolf dream? She may be aware, but there are no incidences where she actually wargs into Nymeria all the way from Braavos. She skinchanges cats in Braavos though.
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