tucu
Black Iron
Posts: 23
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 16:34:57 GMT
Yes, Borroq and his boar crossed peacefully as part of Tormund's group. While crossing there was no incident; no sign of a lost connection to his thrall. Unlike Varamyr's thralls that reacted badly when Melissandre broke their link by burning the eagle. Distance doesn't seem to be a factor on maintaining the wolf pack link. Arya is still in contact with Nymeria from Braavos. Borroq and his boar stayed together. They were never separated. When is Arya's last wolf dream? She may be aware, but there are no incidences where she actually wargs into Nymeria all the way from Braavos. She skinchanges cats in Braavos though. The wolf dreams continue in AFfC when after she joins the HoB&W and in ADwD in Cat of the canals and the Blind girl. Then in the Ugly little girl she still calls herself the night wolf and the Kindly Man tells her: "You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood."
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 16:37:00 GMT
When is Arya's last wolf dream? She may be aware, but there are no incidences where she actually wargs into Nymeria all the way from Braavos. She skinchanges cats in Braavos though. Are you saying that a wolf dream is not skinchanging? Since when? Arya dreams of Nymeria both while playing the part of Cat of the Canals and in the House of B&W while she's blind, before she actively skinchanges the cat. ETA 'd by tucu
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tucu
Black Iron
Posts: 23
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 17:00:09 GMT
And a nice bit from TWoW. Notice that there is a tree watching her and probably calling her by her real name.
She woke with a gasp, not knowing who she was, or where. The smell of blood was heavy in her nostrils...or was that her nightmare, lingering? She had dreamed of wolves again, of running through some dark pine forest with a great pack at her heels, hard on the scent of prey. Half-light filled the room, grey and gloomy. Shivering, she sat up in bed and ran a hand across her scalp. Stubble bristled against her palm. I need to shave before Izembaro sees. Mercy, I'm Mercy, and tonight I'll be raped and murdered. Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her... Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she'd dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 17:01:50 GMT
"I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …" That's very wise, indeed. It calls to mind Tyron's two headed dream as well. Someone who also hears the call of the wild or the song and feels compelled to run with the wolves.
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 17:19:57 GMT
So are you thinking that these are not examples of greenseer time travelling powers, but the power of wolf blood? Maybe some type of share consciousness between Starks and their direwolves? I could get into this explanation. Bran being the alpha wolf and being able to access a shared memory and contact other members. This could link to my suspicion of the Others behaving like a wolf pack. In the GoT, 6 WWs confront Waymar Royce, but only one fights him (one WW for each Stark kid and direwolf). Tormund then tells about the Others killing outriders and people that fell behind. The behaviour is similar to what a wolf pack would do, including the herding the wildlings towards The Wall. I'm not ready to give up on the idea that Bran could not connect to Jon directly because of their separation by the Wall. He speaks directly to his mind as he does in the Arya quote you found. I'm just not sure if jnr is correct that this is a latent ability that Bran has to use the weirnet which is not affected by the Wall. The difference being that he can be present in the tree and speak to Arya as we might expect and speak to Jon in the image of a tree rather than using a tree that already exists. I think the quotes about not being afraid of the dark anymore and liking it there are more representative of BR's cave than the Crypts at Winterfell. added: The second thing that's interesting about the Arya and Theon quote is that it's Bran reinforcing their identity when they don't know who they are anymore.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 17:37:30 GMT
When is Arya's last wolf dream? She may be aware, but there are no incidences where she actually wargs into Nymeria all the way from Braavos. She skinchanges cats in Braavos though. Are you saying that a wolf dream is not skinchanging? Since when? Arya dreams of Nymeria both while playing the part of Cat of the Canals and in the House of B&W while she's blind, before she actively skinchanges the cat. ETA 'd by tucu No. I am not. Wolf dreams are unconscious connections via the third eye, but when Jon is awake he doesn't know how to open his third eye yet. How can he reach out to Ghost if he doesn't know how to do it?
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Post by min on Aug 2, 2016 17:53:22 GMT
not sure what I wanted to say there... for a moment. LOL
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 17:57:38 GMT
Sensing your familiar is nearby has got to be different than wolf dreams or opening the third eye. It's likely the weakest connection between the three.
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tucu
Black Iron
Posts: 23
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Post by tucu on Aug 2, 2016 18:35:38 GMT
Is the connection between a warg and a direwolf that different from the connection between direwolves? We know that Ghost can sense Nymeria all the way to the Riverlands and Shaggydog all the way to Skagos.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 19:24:02 GMT
What I'm getting at is there must be three types of connection:
1) Jon and Arya can sense their wolves while awake if they're in close proximity
2) Jon and Arya have wolf dreams. When they're asleep their third eye opens and they passively slip into their wolves.
3) Bran can open his third eye while awake. He can reach Summer (or Hodor) anytime he wants.
Sensing your wolf is not active warging, and that's why Jon can only sense Ghost when he's nearby while awake.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 19:58:23 GMT
I'm not disputing that with you Mel, but what I'm saying is that it is still a connection that gets broken with Ghost and Jon immediately after Jon tells Ghost that he must be parted from him. Jon wonders if Ghost understood him, then he hears a rustling in the bushes and thinks it might be Ghost coming back. The point is he's no longer aware of where Ghost is, while Ghost is still in proximity to him. We're talking moments after he sends Ghost away, so Ghost couldn't have gone far. Jon has sensed Ghost from further away and known it was him coming.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 2, 2016 21:19:12 GMT
It would be quite annoying to be constantly aware of what your direwolf was doing if it were every waking hour! The slather, the attention to hunting...it just wouldn't be practical, so I don't think Jon and Arya would be constantly aware of their direwolves.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 2, 2016 22:01:42 GMT
That is not the kind of awareness I think happens. That only happens with Jon once Ghost returns to him. And maybe a couple of other instances where the wolves will interrupt or influence both Jon and Bran's thoughts. Maybe Arya's as well.
What I think they have is just a knowing they are there. How many times during the Great Ranging do we see Jon lifting his and looking directly at the spot where Ghost breaks through the brush? Same with Bran while they are travelling north. It's hard to explain, honestly, but I think it is akin to how a parent knows where their child is on a playground or if they're in danger of getting hurt the parent is sometimes aware it is about to happen and they react before the child falls. I've seen it hundreds of times but I don't know how to explain what it is. It is some sort of extrasensory thing happening where you are aware of the other person/wolf but you are not in their head or body. Just a knowing.
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Post by min on Aug 3, 2016 16:51:25 GMT
Posted at Westeros: Rereading Bran V in aCoK is interesting. This is where Bran learns that he is a warg, something he goes into denial about because of Old Nan's scary stories about beastlings and skinchangers.
Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were always evil. "I'm not like that," Bran said. "I'm not. It's only dreams."
"The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you are awake, but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you."
"I don't want it. I want to be a knight."
"A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can't change that, Bran, you can't deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf but you will never fly." Jojen got up and walked to the window. "Unless you open your eye.: He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard.
When he raised his hand to the spot, ran felt only the smooth unbroken skin. There was no eye, not even a closed one "How can I open it if it's not there?"
"You will never find the eye with your fingers, Bran. You must search with your heart." Jojen studied bran's face with those strange green eyes. "Or are you afraid?"
"Maester Luwin says there's nothing in dreams that a man need fear."
"There is," said Jojen
"What?"
"The past. The future. The truth."
Jojen wasn't sent to Bran to open the third for him. He was sent to tell Bran who he is; get past Bran's resistance. Bran can't open his third eye before then. It's Jojen's job to guide him in the use of the third eye. In other words, Bran has to practice until he can do it at will. The third eye doesn't just open one day; it's a skill to be developed. The same thing happens with Bloodraven. Bran has to practice slipping his skin and entering the wiernet. BR is there to guide him.
It's interesting that Jojen says that wolf dreams are not true dreams. Because only one party is sleeping while experiencing the conscious experiences of the other.
True dreams are related to the past, the future and the truth. These are the fears that Bran has to overcome. Notice that GRRM doesn't say: the past, the present, the future. He says the past, the future and the truth. So it's entirely possible that when Bran thinks he may have dreamed of Jon; it was in the future.
Bran wakes from his wolf dream and says "once, I dreamed I talked to Jon, or maybe I dreamed him."
It's not the same as saying he talked to him in that particular wolf dream. These are two separate experiences.
Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.
And now Bran is acting the part of the 3EC for Jon. Who then finds out that he is warg from the Halfhand but has no one to guide him. So we don't see him consciously developing that skill with Ghost.
added: Establishing this connection to Jon might be what is necessary for Bran to connect to Jon later if he ends up in Ghost after being stabbed.
On a side note: there's a pretty good explanation in that chapter of why someone like Bloodraven can't affect the past and change outcomes.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 3, 2016 17:05:16 GMT
You are the winged wolf but you will never fly." Jojen got up and walked to the window. "Unless you open your eye. At least we know "flying" involves opening the third eye. The definition could be the ability to go into someone's dream, or it could be the ability to travel beyond the weirwoods and still be able to return. Jojen wasn't sent to Bran to open the third for him. He was sent to tell Bran who he is; get past Bran's resistance. Bran can't open his third eye before then. It's Jojen's job to guide him in the use of the third eye. In other words, Bran has to practice until he can do it at will. The third eye doesn't just open one day; it's a skill to be developed. The same thing happens with Bloodraven. Bran has to practice slipping his skin and entering the wiernet. BR is there to guide him. I agree. None of the Starks know that they have a third eye and that they can learn to open it. Bran is told by Jojen, Arya discovers hers on accident, and Bran tries to tell Jon. True dreams are related to the past, the future and the truth. These are the fears that Bran has to overcome. Notice that GRRM doesn't say: the past, the present, the future. He says the past, the future and the truth. So it's entirely possible that when Bran thinks he may have dreamed of Jon; it was in the future. I agree that Bran "dreamed" he talked to Jon in the future. On a side note: there's a pretty good explanation in that chapter of why someone like Bloodraven can't affect the past and change outcomes. What specifically are you referring to?
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