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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 26, 2016 2:07:44 GMT
Are you saying that a wolf dream is not skinchanging? Since when? Arya dreams of Nymeria both while playing the part of Cat of the Canals and in the House of B&W while she's blind, before she actively skinchanges the cat. ETA 'd by tucu No. I am not. Wolf dreams are unconscious connections via the third eye, but when Jon is awake he doesn't know how to open his third eye yet. How can he reach out to Ghost if he doesn't know how to do it? Well! I'd like to break out this quote from Jojen in Clash of Kings The wolf dreams aren't really dreams. They are real experiences. Jon has these same experiences bleeding through while awake. His eye is 'fluttering open' while awake. It's not a conciousness effort, no, but it's real.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 26, 2016 3:16:34 GMT
I agree that Jon's third eye flutters open while asleep, but I don't recall accounts of the fluttering while awake.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 28, 2016 19:32:04 GMT
I agree that Jon's third eye flutters open while asleep, but I don't recall accounts of the fluttering while awake. There are a couple of times we see this happening. The one that stands out to most folk is when Jon and Ghost are reunited. Jon slowly starts to get restless, and he feels hunger when he's not hungry. Then Ghost appears and he realises he was sharing feeling with the direwolf. Basically, what this passage is confirming, is there is always a subconscious connection between them. One not fully realised by Jon. Plus there is the beating up of Iron Emmet. Jon loses consciousness but continues to pummel Emmet. Ghost is, at this point, with Jon again. Their connection is stronger after their reunion. But Jon still doesn't have the ability to connect at will, like Bran and Arya do.
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Post by min on Mar 30, 2022 15:56:05 GMT
It seems that Preston Jacobs, at least, sees some merit in Time Travelling Bran. I haven't listened to all 6 parts yet; but Part 1 is lining up with my current thinking as posted at Westeros. www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmD6fZek4Kc
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 30, 2022 17:19:01 GMT
Currently, I don't think Bran can change the past, but I do think he can travel to the future, see things that are about to happen, and then return to change the present. I also wonder if changing things in the present will in turn have an effect on the past?
Take a different book series for example. I'm currently reading, Go Tell The Bees That I Am Gone - the latest and I think final book in the Outlander series. The main character, Claire, lives two parallel lives two hundred years apart. Her first husband from the 1940s-1960-something is named Frank and he's an historian. He wrote a book about the Scottish rebels that immigrated and settled in North Carolina. The Scottish rebels that didn't immigrate became King soldiers that went to fight against the America rebels, and ended up fighting the Scottish rebel immigrants that organized American militant groups. (hopefully that's clearer than it looks!) Claire's husband from the 1700's, Jaime Fraser is one such Scottish rebel that becomes an important militia leader. Claire gave birth in and raised her and Jaime's daughter, Brianna in the 1960's America and returns to the 1700's after Brianna graduates. Brianna herself travels back and forth between eras and when she returns for the second time, she brings her stepfather's historical book about Colonial Scottish militias. Jaime reads the book and thinks Frank is talking to him and wonders what his motive is. He's not quite able to believe what Frank writes about is true - including how Jaime dies. I haven't finished the book yet, but I wonder if the author writes a twist where how using a book from the 1960's actually changes historical events in the 1700's? And then, because the historical event was changed, that the actual text in the book changes. That's what I would do if I were Diana Gabaldon.
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Post by min on Mar 30, 2022 17:49:30 GMT
Currently, I don't think Bran can change the past, but I do think he can travel to the future, see things that are about to happen, and then return to change the present. I also wonder if changing things in the present will in turn have an effect on the past? I'm only on Part 4 at the moment. Each part is about 20 minutes. What is interesting is that Martin has used time travel in 3 of his short stories and it is the consciousness that travels to the past and inhabits or melds with another mind. The first story is about trading the future for one day in the past. That would fit with the notion that Bran would need only one day as a knight and with the idea that he melds with Howland Reed as the KoTLT. At least Martin has used this mechanism is three of his short stories. So that's interesting.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 30, 2022 18:33:56 GMT
I get a little dismayed when people get hung up on the three-eyed crow identity. Does everything need to be spelled out? Bloodraven acknowledges that he's the one that has been coming to him in dreams AND the thousand and one quote regarding Bloodraven is his ability to see through the eyes of crows. To me there's little doubt that Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow.
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Post by min on Mar 30, 2022 18:46:46 GMT
Well, Preston is going off on a lot of tangents with Bran being ubiquitous as a time traveller affecting the past to change one timeline. The only thing I can say with some idea is that Bran has his day as a knight and it's to live that one day for childish fantasy. That in turn has unintended consequences. The same with skin changing Hodor for the first time at Queenscrown and affecting Hodor's mind in the past. That was spur of the moment and in a panic so not by design by some future Bran. The events at the Skirling Pass with Hodor seem to fit with the idea that their souls are connected in some way and Hodor can call on Bran in dire circumstances if needed. I can speculate on whether this demonstrates something about the old gods and green men.
As for when Hodor was changed, I don't think it was at conception but at the moment of Bran's birth when he becomes a separate being from Catelyn. Otherwise I think she would be affected as well. This also fits with the kindly old man telling Arya about the dar angl sent at birth to walk beside you in life. I think this describes Bran and Hodor.
As for escaping out the back door or holding the pass so Brn and Meera can escape out the sinkhole; I'm on the fence about it.
As for the 3EC; I'm still considering Jon Snow who Patchface recognizes as The Crow. Not sure how that works though..
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 30, 2022 18:54:08 GMT
I don't know if I can invest my time to listen to all six. I got through part 2 and got bored with it. You can let me know the highlights!
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Post by min on Mar 30, 2022 20:32:04 GMT
Part one and two are probably enough. LOL The interesting thing to me is that Martin has used consciousnous time travel rather than physical time travel in three short stories. This involves sharing a mind with someone in a past time to effect changes.
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Post by min on Mar 30, 2022 21:59:42 GMT
He does speculate about Bran escaping the cave through the sink-hole/back door with Meera climbing out and hawling him up; while Hodor holds the passage against WWs who have invaded the cave. He ajso speculates that Bran has attempted this again and again throughout time falling to his death each time. He thinks the vision of the curtain of light and thousands of dreamers impaled on spears of ice is actually something that occurs repeatedly when he tries to escape the cave.
I don't think I can go with that idea. The curtain of light is perhaps another wall as mentioned in the oath of the Night Watch. They say they are the Watchers on the Walls. As I've said before it's light that causes the darkness to recede. So this is something else other than a physical Wall but a magical Wall. Once past the Wall, he has to face whatever is contained there and the bodies impaled on ice spears are those who faltered/failed. Not necessarily thousands of versions of Bran
Bran is given a choice to fly or die and back in the physical world his body is close to death. Nobody knows if he will live. He has to wake and take in sustenance to live.
As far as Meera leaving the cave through the back door; that's possible but I'm not sure Bran is going with her. It's an open question for me whether the show ending is what Martin has in mind.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 31, 2022 0:29:07 GMT
In order for the wights to breach the cave, the spell preventing them from passing needs to be broken or removed.
I did speculate in the Heresy thread that I thought the cave of skulls was in the cliff of Hardhome.
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Post by Melifeather on Mar 31, 2022 0:38:42 GMT
Here is what I posted on Heresy awhile back: Where is the cave of skulls? Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor met Coldhands outside of the Nighfort and they headed....north? The precise location is not specified in Dance, but The Lands of Ice and Fire places it within the haunted forest, east of the Fist of the First Men, and southwest of the Antler River. awoiaf.westeros.org/images/4/42/Beyond_the_wall_Adwd_map.jpgIt doesn't really match the description in the text however, because Bran and company pass a frozen lake. The map doesn't show any lakes until further north in the Lands of Always Winter, unless they were walking along the shore of the Shivering Sea. Then the islands they saw with trees on them would have been Skane and Skagos. A large lake, really a sea, would have a large swath of beach which would explain the wide swath where no trees grew. The elk cut across the frozen water (bay?), still heading north even though the shoreline curved westward. Bran slipped into Summer and they went exploring while Coldhands went to deal with some men. Bran is inside Summer running and sniffing. He smells ashes, burnt wood, soot, and charcoal and concludes the smells are from a "dead" fire. Is it possible that the village was Hardhome? Hardhome is described as sitting on a sheltered bay with a deep harbor. A great cliff looms over it pocked with cave mouths. Hardhome was abruptly destroyed six centuries ago. Something terrible happened that night; the details are uncertain. The homes of the inhabitants of Hardhome are said to have burned with flames so high and hot that the Nights Watch thought that the sun was rising in from the north. Afterwards, ashes rained down on the haunted forest and the Shivering Sea for almost half a year. Traders investigating Hardhome reported a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, and shrieks echoing from the cave mouths. A ship sent by the Night's Watch also reported the strange screams. The free folk never again settled the site, which became overgrown by wilderness. Rangers roaming north of the Wall told tales of Hardhome being haunted by ghouls, demons, and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. The mansmells that Summer noticed and the smell of ashes that Bran noted seem to imply that they are at Hardhome. The caves in the cliffs indicate this is an area where an elaborate cave system is located. Not only that, but the description of Hardhome as being haunted by ghouls, er rather the dead that have a taste for blood could explain the number of wights hidden under the snow near the entrance to the cave of skulls. Later on when everyone was sleeping, Bran slipped into Summer and went exploring once again. What do you make of "piss and dead skins, bird shit, and feathers? It seems like a clue. Are these supposed to be references to any of the wildlings that followed Mother Mole to Hardhome? The next Bran chapter is when they find the cave. It is very close to the lake they just crossed and the village that smelled of ashes.
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Post by min on Mar 31, 2022 13:13:39 GMT
In order for the wights to breach the cave, the spell preventing them from passing needs to be broken or removed. This a show storyline that uses the Night King. I'm not sure there is a Night King in the books or an invasion of the Cave of Skulls. It served the show's purpose and I'm inclined to dismiss it..
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Post by min on Mar 31, 2022 13:28:29 GMT
The next Bran chapter is when they find the cave. It is very close to the lake they just crossed and the village that smelled of ashes. Yes looking at the map and text; sure that makes a lot of sense. So somewhere around the Antler River then. It does have to be a forested area given the amount of tree root in the cave and a sinkhole implies underground water and cave system. The underground river might be connected to the Antler River as a place where the water reaches the surface. geologyscience.com/geology-branches/natural-hazards/sinkhole/
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