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Post by ac on Aug 6, 2016 20:55:48 GMT
Branching off that thought, if a lie can have honour can truth have dishonour? Possibly if that truth was told with the intention of causing pain? Or it wasn't your truth to tell?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 6, 2016 21:13:00 GMT
Hmm, maybe there is some confusion. I assumed min was referring to the Faceless Men. Whoops, probably, LOL. I took it as FM meaning First Men, not Faceless Men. Maybe in future I'll just do this
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Post by ac on Aug 6, 2016 21:21:46 GMT
Hmm, maybe there is some confusion. I assumed min was referring to the Faceless Men. Whoops, probably, LOL. I took it as FM meaning First Men, not Faceless Men. Maybe in future I'll just do this Hahaha, no worries.
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Post by min on Aug 6, 2016 21:40:29 GMT
Hmm, maybe there is some confusion. I assumed min was referring to the Faceless Men. I am and I'll be back to answer as soon as I locate some quotes and finish up the Marwyn thread. LOL
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Post by ac on Aug 6, 2016 21:42:13 GMT
Take your time, I'm about to head out
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 7, 2016 2:53:29 GMT
Sam tells him that he thinks he will send her to his father with the story that the boy is his son in hopes that he will have a better life as a bastard there. He asks Jon if there is honor in telling a lie if it's for a good purpose. Gilly's son was supposed to go to fake father Sam's home at Horn Hill, but the baby swap sent Mance's son instead, and Gilly's son is at the Wall. The reverse would be that Wylla's son was supposed to go to the Wall, but the baby swap sent her baby to the fake father's home while the King of the South's baby went to the Wall.
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Post by min on Aug 7, 2016 10:59:33 GMT
Sam tells him that he thinks he will send her to his father with the story that the boy is his son in hopes that he will have a better life as a bastard there. He asks Jon if there is honor in telling a lie if it's for a good purpose. Gilly's son was supposed to go to fake father Sam's home at Horn Hill, but the baby swap sent Mance's son instead, and Gilly's son is at the Wall. The reverse would be that Wylla's son was supposed to go to the Wall, but the baby swap sent her baby to the fake father's home while the King of the South's baby went to the Wall. Moved to inversion thread.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 7, 2016 13:46:03 GMT
The other crazy thing is that, most of the time, when the phrase "words are wind" is used, it's used in relation to a vow or a promise. Contrary to the popular take on this phrase which is usually "yeah talk is cheap" when actually the opposite is true. More in a second. Nice. 'Words are wind' used in a similar manner to 'the Others take you.' Colloquial expressions that have no weight behind them when these phrases should have heft.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 7, 2016 14:09:15 GMT
I always thought the reason the word came out as different for both Mance and Jon is that the word itself was warded. In other words, Melisandre is guarding the power of the word she used. If either of them heard the true word, they too could undo the spell at any time. Not something she would want to happen. There are layers of magic here. If a word can be guarded/warded, then what else can have more than one spell upon it? I came across another passage where she uses old valyrian. I think that might be it. A spell to be sure While reading your OP, min, what first came to mind was Jon heard the new tongue and Mance heard the old tongue. But there should he more to it than that. If she is using the glamour to hide a spell or the correct word used to weave the word, then maybe Jon and Mance hearing this in two seperate languages makes a ceartain sense. Speaking of weaving words, Meera's tale of 'the little crannogman that could' includes some nice words about words.
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Post by min on Aug 7, 2016 14:13:18 GMT
and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear Excellent! Also another example of words mirroring each other or stated backwards and forward like stitching. Melisandre also describes magic as 'weaving'. Coldhands says spells are woven into the Wall.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 7, 2016 16:41:53 GMT
While reading your OP, min, what first came to mind was Jon heard the new tongue and Mance heard the old tongue. But there should he more to it than that. If she is using the glamour to hide a spell or the correct word used to weave the word, then maybe Jon and Mance hearing this in two seperate languages makes a ceartain sense. So in essence the word itself is part of the seeming. Mance hears a word he would think could possibly be the real word, since he hears old tongue, and Jon hears the word in the only language he knows, common tongue. So there is a question of expectation, just like in the glamour itself. You expect to see Rattleshirt because here's a man wearing his bone armour, and that is what you get.
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Post by min on Aug 7, 2016 16:54:36 GMT
While reading your OP, min, what first came to mind was Jon heard the new tongue and Mance heard the old tongue. But there should he more to it than that. If she is using the glamour to hide a spell or the correct word used to weave the word, then maybe Jon and Mance hearing this in two seperate languages makes a ceartain sense. So in essence the word itself is part of the seeming. Mance hears a word he would think could possibly be the word, since he hears old tongue, and Jon hears the in the only language he knows, common tongue. So there is a question of expectation, just like in the glamour itself. You expect to see Rattleshirt because here's a man wearing his bone armour, and that is what it get. And neither word they heard was the word she used! So old valyrian? A word that twists in the ear. Something that echoes around the room like a musical note or pitched in a certain way? Somewhere I read that Mel's voice had a musical quality. I imagine when she is sermonizing. But she uses her voice and her gestures seductively, always.
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Post by ac on Aug 7, 2016 17:09:14 GMT
So in essence the word itself is part of the seeming. Mance hears a word he would think could possibly be the word, since he hears old tongue, and Jon hears the in the only language he knows, common tongue. So there is a question of expectation, just like in the glamour itself. You expect to see Rattleshirt because here's a man wearing his bone armour, and that is what it get. And neither word they heard was the word she used! So old valyrian? A word that twists in the ear. Something that echoes around the room like a musical note or pitched in a certain way? Somewhere I read that Mel's voice had a musical quality. I imagine when she is sermonizing. But she uses her voice and her gestures seductively, always. A more significant consequence of this is that, presumably, she could hold a 3-way conversation with them and make both Jon and Mance hear something different (at least her part of the conversation).
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Post by min on Aug 7, 2016 17:12:50 GMT
A more significant consequence of this is that, presumably, she could hold a 3-way conversation with them and make both Jon and Mance hear something different (at least her part of the conversation). I agree - There are implications! And I haven't forgotten about your last question. I need a nap though. LOL
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Post by ac on Aug 7, 2016 17:43:34 GMT
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