|
Post by username3152 on Dec 1, 2016 3:09:37 GMT
Hello! You are referring to Quaithe's riddle when she makes one of her glass candle visits to Dany? Nope, I was referring to the thread title on MMD's prophecy/curse and suggesting the idea of the sun rising in the West and setting in the East could refer to QM and his journey. There are plenty of other explanations given by other people on what it could imply (if it implies anything since there's scepticism that her words are even a prophecy to begin with) I just had not seen the idea I posted within the thread itself. The 'son's sun' being Quentyn Martell. Since Quentyn doesn't actually pose any threat to Dany and dies a rather gruesome death; it appears that he was never any kind of threat to Dany. ... QM might pose no threat but the words of his companions (Gerris/Archibald) could indeed have serious impact on Dany's return to Westeros since Ser Gerris Drinkwater (?) seems to think Dany's receival of QM's letter was dismissive. "She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword." (Gerris Drinkwater) ADWD - The Queens Hand. Quentyn doesn't seem to be a person of consequence while Tyrion has 'risen' in the West as Hand of the King for a short while and specifically passes through the Sunrise Gate and the Bridge of Dreams another kind of gate. Gates represent something significant as in the Black Gate. Tyrion is someone of consequence, also identified with the Drunken God. Gold, the Lannister ethos is shown with Jaime as the golden man in Bran's dreams. Gold is associated with the sun; so the sun's son could well be Tyrion whom we know is on his way to Dany. While I admit my supposition isn't very strong I think trying to push Tyrion into that role is rather weak but we are at heart talking about different things (MMD's prophecy vs Quaithe's words of warning). If the Mummer's Dragon is Aegon; we know that Tyrion has been able to manipulate him to a certain extent causing Aegon to take an action contrary to Jon Connington's plan. IF Tyrion ends up as on of his chief advisors; this could present a problem for Dany. You know it's often theorized that Aegon is a Blackfyre and I definately see why people would suggest this. But what if the Mummer's Dragon is Euron (or Victarion) utilizing his horn? A mummers dragon is simply a fake dragon that is controlled by people. Euron's horn is said to bind dragons to the will of the person who claims the horn. Personally I lean more towards Aegon being a Blackfyre BUT "dark flame" could also suggest the same so *both* could be found true!
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 4:17:19 GMT
Nope, I was referring to the thread title on MMD's prophecy/curse and suggesting the idea of the sun rising in the West and setting in the East could refer to QM and his journey. There are plenty of other explanations given by other people on what it could imply (if it implies anything since there's scepticism that her words are even a prophecy to begin with) I just had not seen the idea I posted within the thread itself. Ah yes, I see! MMD's prophecy answering Dany's question: Will she see Drogo again. So in other word, when cows fly. LOL. I agree this is very different from Quathe's glass candle riddle which isn't really a prophesy to my mind but passing on information about what she has seen and who she considers a threat Dany. With MMD's prophecy, specifically when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east; some of us have speculated that this could represent time running backwards in a vision. In other word, seeing the sun rise and set in backwards track across the sky could indicate that she is seeing history passing from the present to the past. We know that she is on her way to Vaes Dothrak where she will pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains; the Dothraki high holy place and become an initiate of their mysteries. She will 'touch the light' whatever that means. Once again MMD's prophecy seems to dovetail with Quaithe's cryptic comments. Most people think this means the Shadow by Asshai but we have Vaes Dothrak describes as beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains: As far as Quaithe's warning about QM might pose no threat but the words of his companions (Gerris/Archibald) could indeed have serious impact on Dany's return to Westeros since Ser Gerris Drinkwater (?) seems to think Dany's receival of QM's letter was dismissive. "She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword." (Gerris Drinkwater) ADWD - The Queens Hand. It may present a political problem at some point. The fact that he tried to take a dragon doesn't work in his favor and he brought about his own demise. Presenting marriage with a marriage contract seems a bit weak also. Not sure how the Martel's would enforce it. She is dismissive but I'm not sure that will harm her in the end. While I admit my supposition isn't very strong I think trying to push Tyrion into that role is rather weak but we are at heart talking about different things (MMD's prophecy vs Quaithe's words of warning). I don't think this is weak at all. Tyrion is a trickster like Lann the Clever. He's being sent to Dany because of his intellect and his ability to survive against all odds. He's a brilliant strategist and a slayer of lies. He's possibly a green dreamer and his character is being linked with the Drunken God going back to Garth Greenhands. He's a person of consequence who sports a shadow as tall as a king (Jon Snow) and a giant among men (Maester Aemon). Moqorro tells him about dragons young and old, true and false and Tyrion snarling in the middle of it. You know it's often theorized that Aegon is a Blackfyre and I definately see why people would suggest this. But what if the Mummer's Dragon is Euron (or Victarion) utilizing his horn? A mummers dragon is simply a fake dragon that is controlled by people. Euron's horn is said to bind dragons to the will of the person who claims the horn. Personally I lean more towards Aegon being a Blackfyre BUT "dark flame" could also suggest the same so *both* could be found true! I agree that the identities are up for grabs. Kraken could easily be Victarion or Euron. Dark Flame could be Moqorro or someone who uses a glass candle; the lion could be Cersei teaming up with Connington, the Griffin; the sun's son could be Tyrion teaming up with Aegon as the mummer's dragon. Aegon could be the son of Rhaegar or a substitute Blackfyre. I really like the idea that Blackfyre could actually refer to a dragon breathing shadow flame and controlled by Euron with Dragonbinder! That's awesome!
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 4:17:32 GMT
Duplicate post.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 4:17:59 GMT
Nope, I was referring to the thread title on MMD's prophecy/curse and suggesting the idea of the sun rising in the West and setting in the East could refer to QM and his journey. There are plenty of other explanations given by other people on what it could imply (if it implies anything since there's scepticism that her words are even a prophecy to begin with) I just had not seen the idea I posted within the thread itself. Ah yes, I see! MMD's prophecy answering Dany's question: Will she see Drogo again. So in other word, when cows fly. LOL. I agree this is very different from Quathe's glass candle riddle which isn't really a prophesy to my mind but passing on information about what she has seen and who she considers a threat Dany. With MMD's prophecy, specifically when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east; some of us have speculated that this could represent time running backwards in a vision. In other word, seeing the sun rise and set in backwards track across the sky could indicate that she is seeing history passing from the present to the past. We know that she is on her way to Vaes Dothrak where she will pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains; the Dothraki high holy place and become an initiate of their mysteries. She will 'touch the light' whatever that means. Once again MMD's prophecy seems to dovetail with Quaithe's cryptic comments. Most people think this means the Shadow by Asshai but we have Vaes Dothrak describes as beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains: As far as Quaithe's warning about QM might pose no threat but the words of his companions (Gerris/Archibald) could indeed have serious impact on Dany's return to Westeros since Ser Gerris Drinkwater (?) seems to think Dany's receival of QM's letter was dismissive. "She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword." (Gerris Drinkwater) ADWD - The Queens Hand. It may present a political problem at some point. The fact that he tried to take a dragon doesn't work in his favor and he brought about his own demise. Presenting marriage with a marriage contract seems a bit weak also. Not sure how the Martel's would enforce it. She is dismissive but I'm not sure that will harm her in the end. While I admit my supposition isn't very strong I think trying to push Tyrion into that role is rather weak but we are at heart talking about different things (MMD's prophecy vs Quaithe's words of warning). I don't think this is weak at all. Tyrion is a trickster like Lann the Clever. He's being sent to Dany because of his intellect and his ability to survive against all odds. He's a brilliant strategist and a slayer of lies. He's possibly a green dreamer and his character is being linked with the Drunken God going back to Garth Greenhands. He's a person of consequence who sports a shadow as tall as a king (Jon Snow) and a giant among men (Maester Aemon). Moqorro tells him about dragons young and old, true and false and Tyrion snarling in the middle of it. You know it's often theorized that Aegon is a Blackfyre and I definately see why people would suggest this. But what if the Mummer's Dragon is Euron (or Victarion) utilizing his horn? A mummers dragon is simply a fake dragon that is controlled by people. Euron's horn is said to bind dragons to the will of the person who claims the horn. Personally I lean more towards Aegon being a Blackfyre BUT "dark flame" could also suggest the same so *both* could be found true! I agree that the identities are up for grabs. Kraken could easily be Victarion or Euron. Dark Flame could be Moqorro or someone who uses a glass candle; the lion could be Cersei teaming up with Connington, the Griffin; the sun's son could be Tyrion teaming up with Aegon as the mummer's dragon. Aegon could be the son of Rhaegar or a substitute Blackfyre. I really like the idea that Blackfyre could actually refer to a dragon breathing shadow flame and controlled by Euron with Dragonbinder! That's awesome!
|
|
|
Post by username3152 on Dec 1, 2016 6:41:20 GMT
It may present a political problem at some point. The fact that he tried to take a dragon doesn't work in his favor and he brought about his own demise. Presenting marriage with a marriage contract seems a bit weak also. Not sure how the Martel's would enforce it. She is dismissive but I'm not sure that will harm her in the end. That was pretty much the point I wanted to make . It was implied by your post that Quentyn was not a threat and I wanted to delineate how he could still be a threat. With MMD's prophecy, specifically when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east; some of us have speculated that this could represent time running backwards in a vision. In other word, seeing the sun rise and set in backwards track across the sky could indicate that she is seeing history passing from the present to the past. We know that she is on her way to Vaes Dothrak where she will pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains; the Dothraki high holy place and become an initiate of their mysteries. She will 'touch the light' whatever that means. So, if Dany has visions of something happening it would fulfill the "prophecy" of MMD? Again, I'm not a believer that MMD's words ARE in fact prophecy but stating that a "vision" would be enough to fulfill it just doesn't seem enough. How do you know that she will be an "initiate of their mysteries"? I don't think this is weak at all. Tyrion is a trickster like Lann the Clever. He's being sent to Dany because of his intellect and his ability to survive against all odds. He's a brilliant strategist and a slayer of lies. He's possibly a green dreamer and his character is being linked with the Drunken God going back to Garth Greenhands. He's a person of consequence who sports a shadow as tall as a king (Jon Snow) and a giant among men (Maester Aemon). Moqorro tells him about dragons young and old, true and false and Tyrion snarling in the middle of it. Every sentence after the first I can understand but not within the constraints of the "Sun rising in the West and setting in the East." Pegging Tyrion into the role of a figurative "Sun" because of his hair color, or the gold that is mined from Casterly Rock or even that he has passed through the Sunrise gate seems like a stretch to me (althought that last part made me pause). Tyrion being a trickster, green dreamer, a giant among men, or any of that doesn't seem to address your attempt at making him the SUN.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 9:57:08 GMT
So, if Dany has visions of something happening it would fulfill the "prophecy" of MMD? Again, I'm not a believer that MMD's words ARE in fact prophecy but stating that a "vision" would be enough to fulfill it just doesn't seem enough. How do you know that she will be an "initiate of their mysteries"? When Drogo died Dany automatically became one of the crones of Vaes Dothrak the fate of the wife of a Khal as Jorah explains to her. He tries to get her to run off with him before Drogo's bloodriders can return her to the crones. There is some mystery to the sacred mountain. Only men are allowed to walk on the mountain while the crones probably inhabit caves beneath it. At the end of DwD, Dany is on her way back (to go forward you must go back)to Vaes Dothrak. She has to pass beneath the Shadow and touch the light. This is what I refer to as a religious mystery. The prophecy that the stallion who mounts the earth will unite the Khals into one people or one army. Because what does Dany need at this point to move forward. MMD's prophecy and Quithe's riddle seem to imply that both woman have know knowledge of what will transpire when Dany gets to Vaes Dothrak. Every sentence after the first I can understand but not within the constraints of the "Sun rising in the West and setting in the East." Pegging Tyrion into the role of a figurative "Sun" because of his hair color, or the gold that is mined from Casterly Rock or even that he has passed through the Sunrise gate seems like a stretch to me (althought that last part made me pause). Tyrion being a trickster, green dreamer, a giant among men, or any of that doesn't seem to address your attempt at making him the SUN The symbolism of Sun Spear seems to be tied to the red comet if you have read any of LML's posts at Westeros or his blog site. The comet that seems to come from the direction of the sun to pierce the moon maid, Nissa, Nissa. The Martells are spears. In other symbolism the Sun is associated with lions and gold. While Bran sees Jaime as the golden man; Tyrion's hair is pale blond almost white with a mixture of black hair rather than gold.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Dec 1, 2016 12:58:32 GMT
The passage or prophecy: No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." I love the various interpretations you two have provided for the sun's son and mummer's dragon, especially Euron as a mummer's dragon, but aren't they repeats for the kraken and dark flame, and the lion? Or instead of six separate people she's only warning about two or three? It could be grouped thus: Tyrion = lion and sun's son Euron = kraken and mummer's dragon = dark flame and griffin JonCon would qualify as "griffin", but dark flame? min said: With MMD's prophecy, specifically when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east; some of us have speculated that this could represent time running backwards in a vision. In other word, seeing the sun rise and set in backwards track across the sky could indicate that she is seeing history passing from the present to the past. We know that she is on her way to Vaes Dothrak where she will pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains; the Dothraki high holy place and become an initiate of their mysteries. She will 'touch the light' whatever that means. Please bring the above up during the inversion discussion on Heresy. I cannot recall if it's in the essay I submitted to BC or not, so if you don't see it, please bring it up. Every sentence after the first I can understand but not within the constraints of the "Sun rising in the West and setting in the East." Pegging Tyrion into the role of a figurative "Sun" because of his hair color, or the gold that is mined from Casterly Rock or even that he has passed through the Sunrise gate seems like a stretch to me (althought that last part made me pause). Tyrion being a trickster, green dreamer, a giant among men, or any of that doesn't seem to address your attempt at making him the SUN. Not to answer for min herself, but I get the symbolism behind what she is saying. I too believe time is running in reverse and if the sun is figuratively "rising" in the west, then Tyrion will rise like the sun. The symbolism of Sun Spear seems to be tied to the red comet if you have read any of LML's posts at Westeros or his blog site. The comet that seems to come from the direction of the sun to pierce the moon maid, Nissa, Nissa. The Martells are spears. Again, another thought thoroughly apropos for the inversion discussion. Since IMO Robert is the Thief and Smith in the Moonmaid constellation that stole the moonmaid Lyanna, the inverse to that was Arianne stealing the moonmaid "little" Myrcella, and figuratively she was responsible for Darkstar piercing, but failing to kill her. Myrcella is destined to die if Maggie the Frog is correct, but not until she's wearing her shroud of gold, meaning she has to be Queen first.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 14:53:05 GMT
Please bring the above up during the inversion discussion on Heresy. I cannot recall if it's in the essay I submitted to BC or not, so if you don't see it, please bring it up. Yes, I'll bring it up in the discussion.
|
|
|
Post by min on Dec 1, 2016 16:10:19 GMT
The passage or prophecy: No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." I love the various interpretations you two have provided for the sun's son and mummer's dragon, especially Euron as a mummer's dragon, but aren't they repeats for the kraken and dark flame, and the lion? Or instead of six separate people she's only warning about two or three? It could be grouped thus: Tyrion = lion and sun's son Euron = kraken and mummer's dragon = dark flame and griffin JonCon would qualify as "griffin", but dark flame? I think some of this is up for grabs and alternate identities. I like username3152's suggestion about Kraken and Dark Flame or BlackFire because of one of Dany's visions which i've always wondered about: We know that dragons breath different kinds of colored flame (almost like a glass candle if you think about it). A dragon breathing shadow flame might a dark flame or a black fire. Considering that Moqorro has prepared Victarion in some way to claim the dragonbinding horn and has seen his his destiny in the flames. I wonder if dragon binder does more than bind a dragon; perhaps it creates a 'black mount'or transforms a dragon in some other fundamental way. Remember that Victarion sports an ensorcled hand and arm that cracks an like a blackened crust over hot lava. From the prophecy: I'm not sure that Melisandre is interpreting it correctly. The second head of the dragon: 2) Daughter of Death: for death, to dread, for gold So I think Dany' second mount will be a the 'black dread' breathing shadow flame.
|
|