Post by Melifeather on Aug 8, 2016 0:43:14 GMT
Thanks to Some Pig for coining the word “Starkcest”! Don’t let the fun and cheesy name fool you. What we are about to feast upon is the big and meaty bone of Jon Snow’s true father, but the bigger dish that I am laying out for your consumption is the evidence that Lyanna is not his mother.
min brought up the possibility that Jon was the product of incest between Ned and Lyanna and suggested that it was the definition of Jon having “more of the north in him”. At the same time I was working an inversion angle to the baby swap that Jon did with Mance and Gilly’s sons. The further I went down this rabbit hole the more dirt I dug up, and I think I’ve found some answers, not just to Jon’s parentage, but for the events leading up to Robert’s Rebellion. I now suspect that Rickard, Tywin, and Jon Arryn were complicit in Lyanna’s abduction.
Rickard was embarrassed by Lyanna and Ned's incest. He sent Ned away to be fostered with Jon Arryn, but how do you hide a child born of incest when Rickard didn’t have a living wife? He needed a way to make Lyanna disappear. Not dead, mind you, but to become “no one”, which also parallels Arya. The added benefit is that her abduction would serve as the needed catalyst to start the Rebellion.
min posted this passage from from aCoK Bran II:
"Joffrey the Illborn," one of he Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."
"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."
For a moment Bran felt as though he could not breathe. A giant hand was crushing his chest. He felt as though he was falling, and clutched desperately at Dancer's reins.
Think about it. Lyanna and Ned are especially close. Cersei acuses Ned of being Jon's father when he confronts her about Jon. She throws Ashara at him but I think she is mocking him and calling him a hypocrite. Was House Stark punished by the gods for Ned and Lyanna’s incest?
When Ned and Lyanna speak about her engagement to Robert, Lyanna states her concern that he would never keep to one bed. How did Ned and Lyanna speak when Ned was fostered at the Vale? Did they continue to see each other in secret?
I propose that Lyanna was pregnant at the time of the Tourney, but only a handful of people knew it. She was promised to Robert Baratheon, but maybe that was part of the ruse? If the kidnapping plot was planned prior to the Tourney of Harrenhal it would explain how the blue roses came to be at the tourney, and how seeds were deliberately planted that Rhaegar had designs on her. There is still the unanswered question as to how they got Rhaegar to make Lyanna his queen of love and beauty, but maybe it wasn’t Rhaegar under that armor? Or its possible that when Rhaegar was sent looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he found a weepy Lyanna. His singing had made her uncharacteristically sniffle, and women do tend to be more emotional when pregnant due to the extra hormones. And according to Jorah Mormont Rhaegar was known to take pity on the helpless and for putting them under his protection, so maybe Rhaegar was unwittingly pulled in?
My mind, of course, is influenced by inversions and I believe we can work out Jon’s parentage by examining the baby swap. Gilly is Craster's daughter and incestuous wife. The inversion would be Ned and Lyanna, incestuous siblings and unmarried. Craster doesn’t hide his incest, so naturally the inversion would be that Ned and Lyanna’s incest was hidden.
There is an account that hints of an incestuous relationship, at least Lord Borrell seemed to think Ned was intimate with a woman that he calls the fisherman’s daughter.
"Ned Stark was here?"
"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way, the fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn."
Then Some Pig summarized the passage with this thought:
There are some important points to note here. First, both Borrell lords, father and son, were present for this encounter - the current Lord Borrell witnessed Ned's visit personally. This is verification that Ned Stark was physically at the Sisters, and he had a woman with him. Second, something led the Borrells to believe that they were intimate - such as a particular closeness, or sharing a room at the inn...an intimacy that would lead to 'a bastard in her belly.' Third, we have confirmation that the fisherman's existence cannot be verified, because he drowned before the daughter got them to shore - the Borrells are told that the fisherman existed, but they never saw him. They only see the daughter.
GRRM gives us another clue of the incest by having this encounter take place in a group of islands called “The Sisters”, with one of the islands even being named “Sweet Sister”. This is a phrase we hear frequently from the Lannisters, so is this meant to bring Jaime and Cersei’s incest to mind? Ned and Lyanna’s incest may have been the reason why Ned was sent away and warded with Jon Arryn. Rickard discovered Ned and Lyanna's incestuous relationship and separated them.
In The Queenmaker inversion essay I suggested how "little Myrcella" symbolized the marriage contract between the throne and Dorne (the south). And how the inversion was Lyanna and Robert symbolizing the contract between the Starks (the north) and the presumed throne after the Rebellion. Myrcella pretends to have "red spots" by painting red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund who is pretending to be Myrcella so that Arys Oakheart can sneak Myrcella out of the castle. Arys, for his part, dresses one of his Lannister men in his armor so that people will think Arys was standing guard. The inversion to Arys would be to have someone dress in Rhaegar’s armor to adbuct Lyanna so that people would think it was him. "Red spots" may have been the same excuse that was given to isolate Lyanna from the rest of the household so that no one knew she was delivering Ned's baby.
The premise of the inversion theory is to first recognize the parallel situation, but then invert one side. Here is how I worked through the inversion using the current characters in the baby swap and then applied their parallel inversion:
Lord Commander Jon Snow
“Lord Commander” Bloodraven or perhaps Tywin Lannister
North of the Wall
South in Kings Landing
Mance Raydar - King Beyond the Wall
Rhaegar Targaryen - the King of the South who never was
Craster - Monster's true father
Rickard - not the true father
Gilly
Wylla
Mance’s son
Rhaegar’s son
Gilly’s son - not a bastard - yet a child of incest
Wylla’s (aka Lyanna’s) son - incestuous bastard child
Samwell Tarly - not the true father
Ned Stark - the true father
Sam takes Mance's child to his father's home - safe away from the Wall
Ned takes Rhaegar's child to his father's home - safe away from Kings Landing
Jon swapped Gilly’s son to protect Mance’s son.
Bloodraven/Tywin swapped Wylla’s son to protect Rhaegar’s son.
If Jon was one of the babies that were swapped, then his father is Rhaegar, and Ned’s son is dead. Ned says his bastard’s mother was Wylla. He is not lying, because Wylla is Lyanna.
Edric (nicknamed Ned) Dayne is the source of how we know that Jon Snow and Edric were milk brothers. They shared Wylla's milk. Therefore we know Wylla had a previous pregnancy in order to make milk. Wylla may have nursed Jon, but we do not know if she was ever at Winterfell with him. We know Jon had a nursemaid at Winterfell, but it's never stated that her name was Wylla. Wylla's last known residence is Starfall, therefore Lyanna may still be at Starfall and Edric may be her secondborn son. And, if we rely on the inversion of the baby swap to get us to the truth and realize that Rhaegar’s son is safely at the Wall, then Jon is not Ned and Lyanna’s son.
If Ned and Lyanna’s son was swapped for Rhaegar’s son, this would explain Ned’s strong, emotional outbursts towards Robert with regard to not having qualms about killing children, and Robert’s view that Viserys and Daenerys were “dragon’s spawn”, who I might add are also children of incest. Robert's lack of outrage at the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys at the hands of Ser Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch must have been heart wrenching for Ned if Aegon was actually "Wylla's" child.
If Lyanna was already pregnant at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney, then her child and Aegon were about the same age. The baby swap therefore saved Rhaegar's son, and “the Pisswater Prince” was Ned and Lyanna’s son. Tywin may have actually taken charge of the baby swap and brought the “abducted” Lyanna first to Kings Landing and then Starfall. If Tywin was entrusted with hiding Lyanna and child this would explain Ned’s words that he’d rather trust a child to a pit viper instead of Tywin.
So who was at the tower of joy if not Lyanna? I believe it was Ashara Dayne, but the three “promise me’s” came from Lyanna begging Ned to make sure their child would be safe. It was the death of their son that haunted Ned. Her anguish was a shared one by Gilly when Jon talked her into swapping her son for Mance’s. Lyanna’s “death” was like one of a Faceless Man, becoming “no one”, crying herself to sleep with Ned still holding her hand.
min brought up the possibility that Jon was the product of incest between Ned and Lyanna and suggested that it was the definition of Jon having “more of the north in him”. At the same time I was working an inversion angle to the baby swap that Jon did with Mance and Gilly’s sons. The further I went down this rabbit hole the more dirt I dug up, and I think I’ve found some answers, not just to Jon’s parentage, but for the events leading up to Robert’s Rebellion. I now suspect that Rickard, Tywin, and Jon Arryn were complicit in Lyanna’s abduction.
Rickard was embarrassed by Lyanna and Ned's incest. He sent Ned away to be fostered with Jon Arryn, but how do you hide a child born of incest when Rickard didn’t have a living wife? He needed a way to make Lyanna disappear. Not dead, mind you, but to become “no one”, which also parallels Arya. The added benefit is that her abduction would serve as the needed catalyst to start the Rebellion.
min posted this passage from from aCoK Bran II:
"Joffrey the Illborn," one of he Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."
"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."
For a moment Bran felt as though he could not breathe. A giant hand was crushing his chest. He felt as though he was falling, and clutched desperately at Dancer's reins.
Think about it. Lyanna and Ned are especially close. Cersei acuses Ned of being Jon's father when he confronts her about Jon. She throws Ashara at him but I think she is mocking him and calling him a hypocrite. Was House Stark punished by the gods for Ned and Lyanna’s incest?
When Ned and Lyanna speak about her engagement to Robert, Lyanna states her concern that he would never keep to one bed. How did Ned and Lyanna speak when Ned was fostered at the Vale? Did they continue to see each other in secret?
I propose that Lyanna was pregnant at the time of the Tourney, but only a handful of people knew it. She was promised to Robert Baratheon, but maybe that was part of the ruse? If the kidnapping plot was planned prior to the Tourney of Harrenhal it would explain how the blue roses came to be at the tourney, and how seeds were deliberately planted that Rhaegar had designs on her. There is still the unanswered question as to how they got Rhaegar to make Lyanna his queen of love and beauty, but maybe it wasn’t Rhaegar under that armor? Or its possible that when Rhaegar was sent looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he found a weepy Lyanna. His singing had made her uncharacteristically sniffle, and women do tend to be more emotional when pregnant due to the extra hormones. And according to Jorah Mormont Rhaegar was known to take pity on the helpless and for putting them under his protection, so maybe Rhaegar was unwittingly pulled in?
My mind, of course, is influenced by inversions and I believe we can work out Jon’s parentage by examining the baby swap. Gilly is Craster's daughter and incestuous wife. The inversion would be Ned and Lyanna, incestuous siblings and unmarried. Craster doesn’t hide his incest, so naturally the inversion would be that Ned and Lyanna’s incest was hidden.
There is an account that hints of an incestuous relationship, at least Lord Borrell seemed to think Ned was intimate with a woman that he calls the fisherman’s daughter.
"Ned Stark was here?"
"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way, the fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn."
Then Some Pig summarized the passage with this thought:
There are some important points to note here. First, both Borrell lords, father and son, were present for this encounter - the current Lord Borrell witnessed Ned's visit personally. This is verification that Ned Stark was physically at the Sisters, and he had a woman with him. Second, something led the Borrells to believe that they were intimate - such as a particular closeness, or sharing a room at the inn...an intimacy that would lead to 'a bastard in her belly.' Third, we have confirmation that the fisherman's existence cannot be verified, because he drowned before the daughter got them to shore - the Borrells are told that the fisherman existed, but they never saw him. They only see the daughter.
GRRM gives us another clue of the incest by having this encounter take place in a group of islands called “The Sisters”, with one of the islands even being named “Sweet Sister”. This is a phrase we hear frequently from the Lannisters, so is this meant to bring Jaime and Cersei’s incest to mind? Ned and Lyanna’s incest may have been the reason why Ned was sent away and warded with Jon Arryn. Rickard discovered Ned and Lyanna's incestuous relationship and separated them.
In The Queenmaker inversion essay I suggested how "little Myrcella" symbolized the marriage contract between the throne and Dorne (the south). And how the inversion was Lyanna and Robert symbolizing the contract between the Starks (the north) and the presumed throne after the Rebellion. Myrcella pretends to have "red spots" by painting red spots on her handmaiden, Rosamund who is pretending to be Myrcella so that Arys Oakheart can sneak Myrcella out of the castle. Arys, for his part, dresses one of his Lannister men in his armor so that people will think Arys was standing guard. The inversion to Arys would be to have someone dress in Rhaegar’s armor to adbuct Lyanna so that people would think it was him. "Red spots" may have been the same excuse that was given to isolate Lyanna from the rest of the household so that no one knew she was delivering Ned's baby.
The premise of the inversion theory is to first recognize the parallel situation, but then invert one side. Here is how I worked through the inversion using the current characters in the baby swap and then applied their parallel inversion:
Lord Commander Jon Snow
“Lord Commander” Bloodraven or perhaps Tywin Lannister
North of the Wall
South in Kings Landing
Mance Raydar - King Beyond the Wall
Rhaegar Targaryen - the King of the South who never was
Craster - Monster's true father
Rickard - not the true father
Gilly
Wylla
Mance’s son
Rhaegar’s son
Gilly’s son - not a bastard - yet a child of incest
Wylla’s (aka Lyanna’s) son - incestuous bastard child
Samwell Tarly - not the true father
Ned Stark - the true father
Sam takes Mance's child to his father's home - safe away from the Wall
Ned takes Rhaegar's child to his father's home - safe away from Kings Landing
Jon swapped Gilly’s son to protect Mance’s son.
Bloodraven/Tywin swapped Wylla’s son to protect Rhaegar’s son.
If Jon was one of the babies that were swapped, then his father is Rhaegar, and Ned’s son is dead. Ned says his bastard’s mother was Wylla. He is not lying, because Wylla is Lyanna.
Edric (nicknamed Ned) Dayne is the source of how we know that Jon Snow and Edric were milk brothers. They shared Wylla's milk. Therefore we know Wylla had a previous pregnancy in order to make milk. Wylla may have nursed Jon, but we do not know if she was ever at Winterfell with him. We know Jon had a nursemaid at Winterfell, but it's never stated that her name was Wylla. Wylla's last known residence is Starfall, therefore Lyanna may still be at Starfall and Edric may be her secondborn son. And, if we rely on the inversion of the baby swap to get us to the truth and realize that Rhaegar’s son is safely at the Wall, then Jon is not Ned and Lyanna’s son.
If Ned and Lyanna’s son was swapped for Rhaegar’s son, this would explain Ned’s strong, emotional outbursts towards Robert with regard to not having qualms about killing children, and Robert’s view that Viserys and Daenerys were “dragon’s spawn”, who I might add are also children of incest. Robert's lack of outrage at the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys at the hands of Ser Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch must have been heart wrenching for Ned if Aegon was actually "Wylla's" child.
If Lyanna was already pregnant at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney, then her child and Aegon were about the same age. The baby swap therefore saved Rhaegar's son, and “the Pisswater Prince” was Ned and Lyanna’s son. Tywin may have actually taken charge of the baby swap and brought the “abducted” Lyanna first to Kings Landing and then Starfall. If Tywin was entrusted with hiding Lyanna and child this would explain Ned’s words that he’d rather trust a child to a pit viper instead of Tywin.
So who was at the tower of joy if not Lyanna? I believe it was Ashara Dayne, but the three “promise me’s” came from Lyanna begging Ned to make sure their child would be safe. It was the death of their son that haunted Ned. Her anguish was a shared one by Gilly when Jon talked her into swapping her son for Mance’s. Lyanna’s “death” was like one of a Faceless Man, becoming “no one”, crying herself to sleep with Ned still holding her hand.