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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 9, 2016 1:22:34 GMT
I'm not wedded to any of my findings, just trying to find logical explanations to make the inversions fit. Here's where I think the issue might be....maybe the inversions DON'T actually fit. As min noted above, broad strokes are good. We know the inverse parallels are happening, the wheel has rolled around, all that has happened before is happening/will happen again....in some large all-encompassing form, probably/most likely not down to every precise detail. I tried to go down that path with the tent/TOJ thing and ended up in knots because for every variable there are about 10 different possibilities for an "inversion" - was it a true inversion? A parallel inversion? An upside-down inversion? Was this character paralleled or inverted? What if this character wasn't but this other character was? I could have charted out 100 different end solutions to the tent/TOJ mess based solely on what objective filters I applied to the 'inverpretations'. Like saying Dead Lyanna = Living Wylla because the inversion requires a commoner to match Gilly is just way too granular given the amount of detail we (don't) have, and it's not supported at all by text in any way. However, if you pull back from that tight focus and say, "I believe Ned was involved in a baby swap the way Jon was at the Wall", then OK. Maybe the Ned version involves Rhaella, which is the inverse to Gilly. Maybe Ned's version doesn't HAVE a Gilly at all. Maybe Varys' tale of the Pisswater Prince has a nugget of truth to it, and shockingly involves Ned - Ned enlists the aid of the least trustworthy person in KL while Jon turns to his most trusted friend on the Wall. Inversions everywhere! Anyway, my point is that while I agree with the idea, I think getting down to micro points of inversion is cluttering it up. If we go forth with the simple premise that a baby swap happened and then pull together the known data, we can hammer out the whos and how naturally instead of shoehorning the whos and hows into preexisting roles.
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Post by min on Aug 9, 2016 2:59:25 GMT
The only thing that would be worse than Starkcest would be to find out that Littlefinger is Jon's daddy. Is there any reason to think that Rickard would split Petyr's belly just for flirting with Catelyn? He was like a little brother to her. (oh, oh there's the little brother thing again) Or that Lyssa would spill the beans given her infatuation with him. What we do know is the Littlefinger lies about everything. I haven't checked the passages where Lyssa is threatening to throw Sansa out the moon door but is Sansa a substitute for Lyanna? There may not be enough tin foil for this one. Baelish and Sansa at Lyanna's grave. I'll have to watch that again.
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Post by ac on Aug 9, 2016 3:45:21 GMT
I cannot imagine how GRRM would explain the inversions either, and I lean towards the thought they he may never explicitly explain it, but rather it is a construct in how he is writing the story. I think the inversions are there and there are many that I can point to that are already proven. I do recall pointing out two false memories in previous essays, but I haven't listed any of them here. I haven't been able to read all of your inversion essays / posts but I remember talking about this, with I think @slowfyre, when I first arrived at the forum. This will never be explicitly explained (nor should it be) but possibly gives the 1% (i.e. not your casual reader) who are interested enough to analyse it a way to predict what will happen in the future.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 9, 2016 14:28:56 GMT
The Craster/Monster inversion might not necessarily mean incest. "Baby conceived by unsavory means with the sole intention of using him as a sort of sacrifice/guest gift or who has a specific magical creature destiny."
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 9, 2016 14:48:17 GMT
The Craster/Monster inversion might not necessarily mean incest. "Baby conceived by unsavory means with the sole intention of using him as a sort of sacrifice/guest gift or who has a specific magical creature destiny." Sure. I can see that. I do recognize that the inversions have more than one meaning. I think that is deliberate, because it's meant to convey a repeated cycle of events through time. I think what I need to do is show a couple alternates, but then support my final conclusion with other text so that I better demonstrate how I got there.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 12:10:16 GMT
Inversions aside, a logical conclusion can be made that Lyanna may be Wylla by following the train of thought that if Ned is indeed Jon's father like he says he is, and if Wylla is Jon's mother like Ned also says she is, then the conception would need to have taken place during Ned's route from the Eyrie to Winterfell to call his banners. If you trace that route it would be: Eyrie, the Fingers, the Sister islands, cross the Bite, and on to White Harbor. Lord Borell saw Ned with a woman that Ned identified as the Fisherman's Daughter. Lord Borell thought the two intimate, and that Ned left her with a bastard in her belly. If Wylla is Jon's mother, then she is the Fisherman's Daughter. There is another connection to this story with Mance's rendition of the song The Fisherman's Daughter when he changes the lyrics to the Northman's Daughter, connecting Lyanna to the song. GRRM paints a big red X on the map by naming the islands in the Bite the Three Sisters. The individual islands are Long Sister, Little Sister, and Sweet Sister. The author has been known to reveal identities or events in a threefold series. Ned is older than Lyanna, so she's his little sister. Jaime often calls Cersei "sweet sister", so if the incest between Ned and Lyanna is true, then Sweet Sister may be an acknowledgement.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 10, 2016 16:35:39 GMT
There is another connection to this story with Mance's rendition of the song The Fisherman's Daughter when he changes the lyrics to the Northman's Daughter, connecting Lyanna to the song. I forgot about that! Nice catch there.
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 16:49:59 GMT
There is another connection to this story with Mance's rendition of the song The Fisherman's Daughter when he changes the lyrics to the Northman's Daughter, connecting Lyanna to the song. I forgot about that! Nice catch there. How does the song go? Is it related to the song Jon thinks about when Melisandre burns Rattleshirt? aDwD: Jon III Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman' taken my life. But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 17:09:00 GMT
I forgot about that! Nice catch there. How does the song go? Is it related to the song Jon thinks about when Melisandre burns Rattleshirt? aDwD: Jon III Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman' taken my life. But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife. thats the one!
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 17:30:49 GMT
How does the song go? Is it related to the song Jon thinks about when Melisandre burns Rattleshirt? aDwD: Jon III Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman' taken my life. But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife. thats the one! Sorrry, I don't understand, the lyrics were changed from fisherman's wife to Northman's wife or Dornishman's wife? Are they all the same song? There are three versions?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 10, 2016 17:39:50 GMT
Sorrry, I don't understand, the lyrics were changed from fisherman's wife to Northman's wife or Dornishman's wife? Are they all the same song? There are three versions? No, Mel got the name of the song wrong, and I understood which one she meant. It is the Dornishman's Wife, but in Dance he changed the lyrics for the crowd in Winterfell to the Northman's Wife.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 17:40:23 GMT
The song is The Dornishman's Wife, but Mance while disguised as Able sang it as tasting The Northman's Daughter....now I need to go find the passage to make sure this is correct....
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 17:59:25 GMT
It's in The Prince of Winterfell chapter in Dance. Mance/Abel first sings "Fair Maids of Summer" which have these lyrics:
“Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho . . .”
“I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.”
“I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.”
The song is followed by The Dornishman's Wife, which he changes to Northman's Daughter.
Some readers speculate that Lyanna was cut with a blade/sword and both of the above songs are about cuts from a blade.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 19:03:43 GMT
Lyanna's inversion is Myrcella, who Darkstar cut with a blade. Theon sees a sad slim girl with a dress spattered with gore. Ned got home with the help of a Fisherman's Daughter. Mance/Abel sings of a Northman's Daughter, and about Fair maids...both songs are about blades....Ned made arrangements for Arya to have sword lessons...add these all up together. Doesn't anybody else but me think Lyanna died of a blade? It doesn't exclude having a child, but childbirth doesn't have to mean that's the way she died. And not only that, the songs seem to tie Lyanna as being the fisherman's daughter and...Wylla. Do you still think this is a leap?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 10, 2016 19:14:01 GMT
Doesn't anybody else but me think Lyanna died of a blade? I think absolutely! The gore is violence to me, not childbirth, and even the enormous bloody mess on the mummer's version looked violent. I've got my eye on thinking Wylla might be Lyanna, but I think Wylla more likely is a counterpart to Gilly possibly. Or even Osha. Fleeing south or being sent south for their protection, possibly with an obscured identity. Hard to always frame things as exact conversions. And what about Rickard or Brandon, not Ned, as the Craster counterpart? I think we've discussed Lyanna already possibly being pregnant when she disappeared. Trying to get my head around everything, sorry lol
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