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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 20:01:27 GMT
I've been hit in the head with an anvil. The story of the fisherman's daughter is told at the Sisters. I don't have the details so if someone can fill that part in, I'd appreciate it. The fishermen are the Tully's and sisters are Catelyn and Lyssa. The Dornishman's song that Jon thinks about in DwD Jon III is switched to the Northman's daughter:
Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Northman's taken my life. But what does it matter, for all men must die, and I've tasted the Northman's wife.
This is about Petyr Baelish who tasted Jon Arryn's wife Lyssa, the fisherman's daughter long before she married Jon Arryn. This could mean that Jon Snow is Baelish's son by Lyanna if he ever had access to her at Riverrun. I think a rape is likely and the person who is likely to kill him for it is Brandon Stark. But he didn't finish the job; just slit him up the belly. He must have been close to death.
Does this work?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 20:04:18 GMT
It certainly seems like the elements fit except that Mance is the one singing the song, so if anyone tasted the Northman's wife it was Mance. Furthermore Mance/Abel is Bael, the bard that slipped into Winterfell and plucked the Lord's daughter. Since the song is about a blade I was thinking that Mance had something to do with the blade that possibly killed Lyanna...or at least he felt responsible in some way.
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 20:14:44 GMT
It certainly seems like the elements fit except that Mance is the one singing the song, so if anyone tasted the Northman's wife it was Mance. Furthermore Mance/ Abel is Bael, the bard that slipped into Winterfell and plucked the Lord's daughter. Since the song is about a blade I was thinking that Mance had something to do with the blade that possibly killed Lyanna...or at least he felt responsible in some way. Or he knows more about what happened to Lyanna than he is letting on and it has nothing to do with him. That slippery Bael-ish a ward at Riverrun and plucking the Lord's Daughter. Somebody knows more about Brandon slitting Baelish up the belly. Lyssa kept her relationship with him under wraps. To Catelyn he was a little brother in spite of his flirtations. Then there's Lyssa's over the top reaction to Baelish kissing Sansa. I suspect that has nothing to do with Catelyn and more to do with Lyanna as far as jealousies go. It would be worthwhile to look at that chapter again. Mance may well use the Bael the Bard story to point to Bael-ish. And the second pointer to Jon with the Dornishman's song. Why that would pop into his head at that moment is curious. He thinks Mance is burned but it's someone else. added: Not only that, Petyr's personal sigil is the mockingbird. The mockingbird is known for laying it's eggs in other bird's nests. The Eyrie? Robin is his son also. And now Jon is a crow.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 20:23:07 GMT
I get the Bael connection with Petyr, and he plucked the Riverlord's daughter...who is not of the north.
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 20:25:36 GMT
I get the Bael connection with Petyr, and he plucked the Riverlord's daughter...who is not of the north. He plucked Lyanna who is of the North and a Northman's daughter.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 20:45:15 GMT
I get the Bael connection with Petyr, and he plucked the Riverlord's daughter...who is not of the north. He plucked Lyanna who is of the North and a Northman's daughter. Petyr plucked Lyanna? hmmm...would have to think how that worked...maybe. He does have motive if he wanted revenge for Brandon having humiliated him. Wouldn't that be something if the blade that was meant for Bran was the same blade??? You may be onto something!
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 20:51:37 GMT
He plucked Lyanna who is of the North and a Northman's daughter. Petyr plucked Lyanna? hmmm...would have to think how that worked...maybe. He does have motive if he wanted revenge for Brandon having humiliated him. Wouldn't that be something if the blade that was meant for Bran was the same blade??? You may be onto something! I think we have to look at the chapters when Petyr brings Sansa to the Eyrie. I don't remember exactly what Lyssa said to Sansa when she confronted her about Petyr. There might be some dialogue there if you consider that Sansa is a stand-in for Lyanna in Lyssa's mind.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 21:01:42 GMT
Petyr plucked Lyanna? hmmm...would have to think how that worked...maybe. He does have motive if he wanted revenge for Brandon having humiliated him. Wouldn't that be something if the blade that was meant for Bran was the same blade??? You may be onto something! I think we have to look at the chapters when Petyr brings Sansa to the Eyrie. I don't remember exactly what Lyssa said to Sansa when she confronted her about Petyr. There might be some dialogue there if you consider that Sansa is a stand-in for Lyanna in Lyssa's mind. I can see Petyr being connected to Lyanna's abduction/killing, but not as the initial planner. He was pretty young at the time and I think he just stepped up or was asked by Cersei to make sure Lyanna was eliminated as a rival for queen. The weird thing is how Mance would know. Any ideas on how he would?
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 21:05:22 GMT
I think we have to look at the chapters when Petyr brings Sansa to the Eyrie. I don't remember exactly what Lyssa said to Sansa when she confronted her about Petyr. There might be some dialogue there if you consider that Sansa is a stand-in for Lyanna in Lyssa's mind. I can see Petyr being connected to Lyanna's abduction/killing, but not as the initial planner. He was pretty young at the time and I think he just stepped up or was asked by Cersei to make sure Lyanna was eliminated as a rival for queen. The weird thing is how Mance would know. Any ideas on how he would? I don't have time to look at the chapters right now and I know you're still at work. I'd prefer to discuss it tomorrow when you've had a chance to look at them as well. Maybe there is something in the text to support it.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 10, 2016 21:10:18 GMT
I can see Petyr being connected to Lyanna's abduction/killing, but not as the initial planner. He was pretty young at the time and I think he just stepped up or was asked by Cersei to make sure Lyanna was eliminated as a rival for queen. The weird thing is how Mance would know. Any ideas on how he would? I don't have time to look at the chapters right now and I know you're still at work. I'd prefer to discuss it tomorrow when you've had a chance to look at them as well. Maybe there is something in the text to support it. I'm golfing after work, but maybe I can listen to the audio version in the car? Do you happen to know which book and chapter?
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Post by min on Aug 10, 2016 21:58:46 GMT
Specifically its SoS Chapter 80 Sansa VII. But I should think that anything to do with Sansa and Petyr after she escapes and becomes Alayne Stone. Possible even the chapters with Ned, Catelyn and Baeilish in GoT.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 2:24:44 GMT
I've just begun to read SoS Chapt 80 and already think I know how Mance knows about Petyr. Marillion!
Do you think it's possible that Mance was playing "bard" and knew something regarding Petyr and being responsible to killing Lyanna?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 2:29:57 GMT
If this is a shadow from Lyanna's past, it's kind of sad:
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 2:38:44 GMT
Sansa's going to be Queen in the North and rebuild Winterfell:
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 2:40:23 GMT
Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic with Sansa...
If Mance knows something about Petyr, then Mance played a bard at Riverrun and he must know something. I think we need to pay attention to passages about Marillion.
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