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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 19:25:55 GMT
I was just reading SoS Sansa VIII. This is after the snow castle and Petyr kissing Sansa. She is summoned by Lysa and accused of coming onto Petyr and almdst throws Sansa out the moon door. Lysa comes straight out and tells Sansa that Petyr was always flirting with Catelyn and she saw the 'kissing' under the wierwood tree. One night when Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood come to put their dispute before Hoster; Petyr gets drunk and he has to be carried up to bed. Lysa steels up to his room and loses her virginity. Petyr calls her Cat before falling back to sleep. She becomes pregnant and her father murders her child with moon tea. She even gives the ingredients. Hoster takes her child from her because she is already betrothed to Lord Arryn who was willing to take her even though she was soiled. I think that pretty much explains why Hoster sent Petyr away. It doesn't look like it has anything to do with the Tourney.
So back to the bed of blood imagery and whether or not Lyanna was also given moon tea. Would Robert have accepted her if she was soiled. IF Robert did the deed himself; would he and Ned be on such good terms. I have no idea.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 20:32:09 GMT
Hoster takes her child from her because she is already betrothed to Lord Arryn who was willing to take her even though she was soiled. Ok, this has always confused me and I want to take a closer look at this timeline. Petyr has the hots for Cat throughout childhood; this doesn't change once she is betrothed to Brandon. One night when Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood come to put their dispute before Hoster; Petyr gets drunk and he has to be carried up to bed. Lysa steels up to his room and loses her virginity. Petyr calls her Cat before falling back to sleep. This is prior to any events of the Rebellion; it occurred on the night that the Cat/Brandon betrothal was announced, which would have been when Cat was 12 and Lysa maybe 10. I don't think a pregnancy would have happened here. Fast forward to the duel between Petyr and Brandon. This happened in 282, when Brandon was 20 and Baelish 15...AFTER the Tourney at Harrenhal. Petyr challenged Brandon when the wedding date was announced - so Lyanna wasn't missing yet. Petyr and Brandon fight, Petyr is gravely wounded. Hoster allows him to stay at Rivverun and recover for two weeks, then sends him back to the Fingers to convalesce. During this time, Brandon takes leave of Catelyn at Riverrun to conduct a mystery errand but promises to be back in time for the wedding. The story is that Lysa nursemaids Petyr while he is recovering from this mortal wound, and it is from this encounter that she gets pregnant. First, our choices for Lysa's conception are 1) when she is a young girl that hasn't flowered yet, or 2) when she basically rapes an incapacitated Baelish while he's recovering from a massive gut wound and most likely strung out on milk of the poppy. (Think Tyrion while he's recovering from his face wound of the Blackwater.) Okaaaay.... Second, if the pregnancy occurred from this last encounter, then Petyr soiling Lysa and getting her with child could not have been the reason that Hoster sent him away, because Hoster would have sent him away before anyone knew Lysa was pregnant. Third, the moon tea/tansy episode would have occurred quite some time after Petyr had returned to the Fingers - Lysa seems fairly convinced that the baby she miscarried was a boy, meaning she was at least several months along when it happened. This would be somewhere around the official start of the Rebellion, probably close to Brandon and Rickard's execution & Jon Arryn calling banners. After returning to the Fingers, Baelish sends Catelyn a letter and she burns it. She is now promised to Ned by this time. Is anyone else seeing this as troubling?
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 20:57:13 GMT
Did Petyr know something about Brandon that would cause Brandon to slit his belly and did he try to tell Catelyn in a letter. Brandon's errand is related to that information. Was Petyr being used as a spy for someone?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 21:11:55 GMT
Hoster takes her child from her because she is already betrothed to Lord Arryn who was willing to take her even though she was soiled. Ok, this has always confused me and I want to take a closer look at this timeline. Petyr has the hots for Cat throughout childhood; this doesn't change once she is betrothed to Brandon. One night when Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood come to put their dispute before Hoster; Petyr gets drunk and he has to be carried up to bed. Lysa steels up to his room and loses her virginity. Petyr calls her Cat before falling back to sleep. This is prior to any events of the Rebellion; it occurred on the night that the Cat/Brandon betrothal was announced, which would have been when Cat was 12 and Lysa maybe 10. I don't think a pregnancy would have happened here. Fast forward to the duel between Petyr and Brandon. This happened in 282, when Brandon was 20 and Baelish 15...AFTER the Tourney at Harrenhal. Petyr challenged Brandon when the wedding date was announced - so Lyanna wasn't missing yet. Petyr and Brandon fight, Petyr is gravely wounded. Hoster allows him to stay at Rivverun and recover for two weeks, then sends him back to the Fingers to convalesce. During this time, Brandon takes leave of Catelyn at Riverrun to conduct a mystery errand but promises to be back in time for the wedding. The story is that Lysa nursemaids Petyr while he is recovering from this mortal wound, and it is from this encounter that she gets pregnant. First, our choices for Lysa's conception are 1) when she is a young girl that hasn't flowered yet, or 2) when she basically rapes an incapacitated Baelish while he's recovering from a massive gut wound and most likely strung out on milk of the poppy. (Think Tyrion while he's recovering from his face wound of the Blackwater.) Okaaaay.... Second, if the pregnancy occurred from this last encounter, then Petyr soiling Lysa and getting her with child could not have been the reason that Hoster sent him away, because Hoster would have sent him away before anyone knew Lysa was pregnant. Third, the moon tea/tansy episode would have occurred quite some time after Petyr had returned to the Fingers - Lysa seems fairly convinced that the baby she miscarried was a boy, meaning she was at least several months along when it happened. This would be somewhere around the official start of the Rebellion, probably close to Brandon and Rickard's execution & Jon Arryn calling banners. After returning to the Fingers, Baelish sends Catelyn a letter and she burns it. She is now promised to Ned by this time. Is anyone else seeing this as troubling? I think your timeline of events is correct, but I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. I think Hoster sent Petyr away because Brandon was insulted that a young, 2nd generation petty lord thought he could duel him for Catelyn's hand. Hoster was likely disgusted and didn't want him under his roof, especially since Catelyn was still at home until the wedding. I'm sure Hoster and Catelyn don't want Petyr there for that! As for Lysa finding out later that she was pregnant...it's possible. She maybe even confessed to her father as soon as she knew and that was when the moontea was brewed.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 21:19:30 GMT
Did Petyr know something about Brandon that would cause Brandon to slit his belly and did he try to tell Catelyn in a letter. Hrm. Brandon goes to KL and demands that Rhaegar come out and die. He doesn't demand to know where Lyanna is, or demand to ask Rhaegar where Lyanna is... curious.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 21:22:05 GMT
Did Petyr know something about Brandon that would cause Brandon to slit his belly and did he try to tell Catelyn in a letter. Hrm. Brandon goes to KL and demands that Rhaegar come out and die. He doesn't demand to know where Lyanna is, or demand to ask Rhaegar where Lyanna is... curious. But it's Catelyn's version of events that states Brandon was on his way to come marry her "when he heard the news about Lyanna".
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 21:23:34 GMT
Hrm. Brandon goes to KL and demands that Rhaegar come out and die. He doesn't demand to know where Lyanna is, or demand to ask Rhaegar where Lyanna is... curious. But it's Catelyn's version of events that states Brandon was on his way to come marry her "when he heard the news about Lyanna". Right. Yet he doesn't storm KL demanding that Lyanna be found or freed. Just that Rhaegar should come out and die. Why should Rhaegar die... before Lyanna is found safe and sound?
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 21:40:13 GMT
But it's Catelyn's version of events that states Brandon was on his way to come marry her "when he heard the news about Lyanna". Right. Yet he doesn't storm KL demanding that Lyanna be found or freed. Just that Rhaegar should come out and die. Why should Rhaegar die... before Lyanna is found safe and sound? Wow! I didn't know anything about this bit from the World Book.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 21:57:10 GMT
Right. Yet he doesn't storm KL demanding that Lyanna be found or freed. Just that Rhaegar should come out and die. Why should Rhaegar die... before Lyanna is found safe and sound? Wow! I didn't know anything about this bit from the World Book. All straight from the books.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 23:11:10 GMT
But it's Catelyn's version of events that states Brandon was on his way to come marry her "when he heard the news about Lyanna". Right. Yet he doesn't storm KL demanding that Lyanna be found or freed. Just that Rhaegar should come out and die. Why should Rhaegar die... before Lyanna is found safe and sound? Well, there's no other explanation offered and Catelyn implies it's due to her abduction.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 23:24:40 GMT
Cat says nothing, not even an implication, about an abduction or even a disappearance, that's an RLJ intepretation. He could have heard Lyanna died, or was near death, or had run away and sent a raven that Rhaegar helped her. If Brandon heard "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" storming KL and demanding he fight/die doesn't make sense.
It makes as little sense as Ned not demanding to see Lyanna when he arrives at the ToJ, or even just inquiring about her.
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 23:36:57 GMT
All straight from the books. Yes, I looked it up when I saw the post because I have no memory of ever reading about it. Now some previous posts concerning Lyanna being stabbed makes some sense to me.
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 23:37:58 GMT
Cat says nothing, not even an implication, about an abduction or even a disappearance, that's an RLJ intepretation. He could have heard Lyanna died, or was near death, or had run away and sent a raven that Rhaegar helped her. If Brandon heard "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" storming KL and demanding he fight/die doesn't make sense. It makes as little sense as Ned not demanding to see Lyanna when he arrives at the ToJ, or even just inquiring about her.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 1:04:23 GMT
Cat says nothing, not even an implication, about an abduction or even a disappearance, that's an RLJ intepretation. He could have heard Lyanna died, or was near death, or had run away and sent a raven that Rhaegar helped her. If Brandon heard "Rhaegar abducted Lyanna" storming KL and demanding he fight/die doesn't make sense. It makes as little sense as Ned not demanding to see Lyanna when he arrives at the ToJ, or even just inquiring about her. True enough. It does seem to hint that she was already dead or injured by that point, doesn't it. I do think she was injured by a blade, but it still seems like Brandon felt Rhaegar bore the responsibility for something.
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Post by min on Aug 22, 2016 16:39:50 GMT
I read an interesting thread here about Dany. Sounds like some of you already know about it. I'm pretty convinced at this point that Dany's memory and background story are fabricated but she is Rhaegar's daughter as some have suggested here. I'm just not so sure she's Lyanna's daughter. Her affinity with horses might come from a karmic association going back to the original mother of dragons and the Dothraki people long ago. She doesn't need the wolf blood to make the soul's connection with horses or dragons. She looks like Ashara and she's her father's daughter. That clinches it for me. The idea that she and Viserys spent part of their lives apart is brilliant and that Varys and Illyrio have been planning stuff for years before she ended up in Pentos is pretty solid argument. That Viserys is in on it is also brilliant. He tells her she's a dragon, not a fish and she smells like horse. That pretty much places her in Dorne in a fishing village. The dornish are also know for their horses. Are they not? So Willem Darrey is not the old bear. Someone who may have been poisoned and Dany appropriated thereafter sent to Viserys. The servants didn't steal the riches that Viserys had so he couldn't have been with her. The bit that fits with Rheagar travelling to Harrenhal could be that Ashara was at Harrenhal after being dismissed by Elia. She wouldn't go back with her to KL if there was some hanky panky going on with Rhaegar and Ashara at the tourney. That would seem to be a good reason for Rhaegar and Arthur to be in the vicinity. Is this what Littlefinger discovered at the Inn? Also consider that Willem had soft hands and walked with a cane in Dany's vision and Ned saying that he would rather trust a child to a pit viper. Someone from House Martell?
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