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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 18:17:31 GMT
OK, I think I'm on the same page now. You are drawing a parallel between Marillion and Petyr as men that abuse their position and deflect the blame onto the very people they are abusing. Got it, and agreed. However, Lyssa never mentions being jealous of Lyanna, but she was very jealous of her sister, Catelyn. That's who she viewed as her competition, and Sansa looks very much like her mother, so Lyssa is associating Sansa with Catelyn. Plus we don't have any record of Lyanna spending time at Riverrun, so I cannot agree with this part. It can't be Petyr but he has reason to sabotage Ned. The question is how and why did Lyanna end up at Starfall. I still think this is her own plan. So we're back to Starkcest. I think there's enough evidence to place some suspicion on Petyr for the blade wound. And if he was in close enough contact to use a blade on her, he could have raped her then...but it would've had to have happened after the duel with Brandon.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 18:30:41 GMT
I think there's enough evidence to place some suspicion on Petyr for the blade wound. And if he was in close enough contact to use a blade on her, he could have raped her then...but it would've had to have happened after the duel with Brandon. It's a stretch. He would have to be at Starfall around the time of her death. There's plenty of evidence to say that Jon and Lyanna were there and nothing to say that Petyr was there. I still think she died of a contagious fever causing hemorrhaging and internal bleeding and that's why she was at the Tower of Joy in isolation.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 18:34:47 GMT
Wait now. Petyr could still be Jon's father if he was at the Tourney. That's suggested in the show but not canon. It would mean that Lyanna didn't tell anyone except the Maester. That's typical of women who are raped. The maester would have to know about her condition if she went to him about it. She would seek his help if she was pregnant. If Mance was there disguised as a Bard, could it be that he heard some boasting about raping Lyanna. Is it likely that Petyr could have overpowered her himself or did he have help?
Was anyone from Riverrun actually at the tournament? As a ward of the Tully's, Petyr may have acted as a squire if that's the case.
Why did Brandon tell Catelyn that he wouldn't hurt Petyr and then inflict such a terrible wound?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 19:02:36 GMT
I think there's enough evidence to place some suspicion on Petyr for the blade wound. And if he was in close enough contact to use a blade on her, he could have raped her then...but it would've had to have happened after the duel with Brandon. It's a stretch. He would have to be at Starfall around the time of her death. There's plenty of evidence to say that Jon and Lyanna were there and nothing to say that Petyr was there. I still think she died of a contagious fever causing hemorrhaging and internal bleeding and that's why she was at the Tower of Joy in isolation. I think Ned found Ashara at the tower of joy and not Lyanna. Somehow his memories of the two girls get overlapped in his fever dream.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 19:07:30 GMT
Doesn't Petyr says something about Starks and their anger when Catelyn arrives in Kingslanding and Ned arrives at the Brothel. He takes Petry by the throat. I have a hard time thinking that Petyr's injury was accidental or had anything to do with Catelyn or what she thinks of Petyr. If there was nothing more; I would think that Brandon would be somewhat amused; give him a few nicks considering how unbalanced the competition. But to cut him from groin to sternum and send him back to the Fingers; sounds like something else is going on to me.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 19:12:52 GMT
Wait now. Petyr could still be Jon's father if he was at the Tourney. That's suggested in the show but not canon. It would mean that Lyanna didn't tell anyone except the Maester. That's typical of women who are raped. The maester would have to know about her condition if she went to him about it. She would seek his help if she was pregnant. If Mance was there disguised as a Bard, could it be that he heard some boasting about raping Lyanna. Is it likely that Petyr could have overpowered her himself or did he have help? Was anyone from Riverrun actually at the tournament? As a ward of the Tully's, Petyr may have acted as a squire if that's the case. Why did Brandon tell Catelyn that he wouldn't hurt Petyr and then inflict such a terrible wound? I also suspect Lyanna was pregnant before she went missing and was the real reason she was isolated at Winterfell, but due to the duel between Petyr and Brandon happening after the tourney, I don't see a motive for Petyr to attack Lyanna prior to that.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 19:13:57 GMT
Doesn't Petyr says something about Starks and their anger when Catelyn arrives in Kingslanding and Ned arrives at the Brothel. He takes Petry by the throat. I have a hard time thinking that Petyr's injury was accidental or had anything to do with Catelyn or what she thinks of Petyr. If there was nothing more; I would think that Brandon would be somewhat amused; give him a few nicks considering how unbalanced the competition. But to cut him from groin to sternum and send him back to the Fingers; sounds like something else is going on to me. That duel was about honor. Brandon was defending his bride to be's honor. Some men would kill for that.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 19:21:47 GMT
I also suspect Lyanna was pregnant before she went missing and was the real reason she was isolated at Winterfell, but due to the duel between Petyr and Brandon happening after the tourney, I don't see a motive for Petyr to attack Lyanna prior to that. What motives do sociopaths and bully boys needs?She showed them up when they ganged up on Howland. For some that would be enough. She could have been attacked at the tournament. She either didn't tell anyone or she only told Brandon. Mance and Rhaegar may have heard about it at the tourney if the boys were stupid enough to boast about it to each other. Which would seem like typical behavior. Brandon can't come right out and kill Petyr because he's a ward of the Tully's and he's marrying into that family. Is it possible that Brandon confronted Petyr about it privately and Petyr then challenged him to trial by combat. Spinning a lovely story to Catelyn who suspects nothing but asks Brandon to take it easy on the boy for her sake? Brandon who is sworn to silence by his sister. Is Brandon really such a monster or is Petyr the monster.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 11, 2016 20:02:00 GMT
That duel was about honor. Brandon was defending his bride to be's honor. Some men would kill for that. No that duel was for Catelyn's hand. Petyr challenged Brandon to single combat for the sake of Cat's hand in marriage. So it makes no sense for Brandon to have cut him so brutally. Brandon had him half way in the water, he could've just kept pushing Petyr back until he fell in entirely. Doesn't Petyr says something about Starks and their anger when Catelyn arrives in Kingslanding and Ned arrives at the Brothel. You're thinking of the show. In the book Ned takes offence at Littlefinger's mocking him about what the King's Hand does, Ned tells him to STFU basically, and LF replies 'The direwolf must be a prickly beast.'
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 20:11:30 GMT
That duel was about honor. Brandon was defending his bride to be's honor. Some men would kill for that. No that duel was for Catelyn's hand. Petyr challenged Brandon to single combat for the sake of Cat's hand in marriage. So it makes no sense for Brandon to have cut him so brutally. Brandon had him half way in the water, he could've just kept pushing Petyr back until he fell in entirely. Doesn't Petyr says something about Starks and their anger when Catelyn arrives in Kingslanding and Ned arrives at the Brothel. You're thinking of the show. In the book Ned takes offence at Littlefinger's mocking him about what the King's Hand does, Ned tells him to STFU basically, and LF replies 'The direwolf must be a prickly beast.' Well, I think plot line basically works for me. I need to start combing through the text now for corroboration. Aren't prickly beasts porcupines? Whose sigil is that? The squires that bullied Howland: "One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well." I wonder if Petyr has anything to say to Sansa about porcupines when he takes her to the Fingers.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 11, 2016 21:20:15 GMT
That duel was about honor. Brandon was defending his bride to be's honor. Some men would kill for that. No that duel was for Catelyn's hand. Petyr challenged Brandon to single combat for the sake of Cat's hand in marriage. So it makes no sense for Brandon to have cut him so brutally. Brandon had him half way in the water, he could've just kept pushing Petyr back until he fell in entirely. Doesn't Petyr says something about Starks and their anger when Catelyn arrives in Kingslanding and Ned arrives at the Brothel. You're thinking of the show. In the book Ned takes offence at Littlefinger's mocking him about what the King's Hand does, Ned tells him to STFU basically, and LF replies 'The direwolf must be a prickly beast.' Catelyn's account has Brandon demanding that Petyr "yield", but he refuses.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 21:34:30 GMT
House Blount has the porcupine sigil and House Haigh has the pitchfork symbol.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 11, 2016 21:52:32 GMT
Catelyn's account has Brandon demanding that Petyr "yield", but he refuses. Yeah and he's already got a fair number of minor cuts from Brandon while Brandon is asking him to 'yield', so I think it's clear Brandon was toying with Petyr. If he's backed Petyr down the water steps, that means they're on the river, and they're already in up to their ankles. I agree with min on this one, if Brandon was that much more skilful, then he could've continued to beat Petyr down the steps and give him a good soaking. Instead, Brandon slashes him so badly it takes Petyr 2 weeks to recover enough to travel. That sounds too aggressive a stroke to account for the situation. There is no way, even if Petyr wins, that the wedding will not take place regardless, and they would all have known that from the start of the dual. Hoster would never have allowed it. Dual winner or not, Petyr is too low-born for the daughters of a great house. He denies Lysa marrying Petyr for that very reason.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 11, 2016 21:59:54 GMT
House Blount has the porcupine sigil Hmm, Boros Blount is a fairly innocuous character though. The worst he does is tell the truth at Tyrion's trial. And later he's humiliated by Jaime because he's so inept as a Kingsguard, Jaime makes him Tommen's food taster.
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Post by min on Aug 11, 2016 22:16:52 GMT
I can't find anything that says the Tully's were at the Tourney even though it takes place in the Riverlands. All wiki shows are the houses that competed; not the houses that attended. I find it hard to believe that the Tully's weren't there is one capacity or other given that it was billed as a major event especially with Rhaegar and Ser Arthur in attendance. It would almost be obligatory for the major houses.
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