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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 17:42:33 GMT
I think Ned is mixing his memories of Lyanna and Ashara up. Maybe their deaths were similar? Maybe yes. Although the story that was put out was that she lost a child and then jumped from a cliff, although her body wasn't found. I still think Ashara is Septa Lamore or l'Amore if you like. a·mour əˈmo͝or,äˈmo͝or/ noun noun: amour; plural noun: amours a secret or illicit love affair or lover.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 18:15:27 GMT
Ok here's a crazy idea. Seeing as how this tower is in the Prince's Pass, meaning overlooking the pass, and it is basically alone, then we could have these scenarios...
1. Lyanna fled south on her own, heading for Starfall either on Ned's advice, or because she knew Ashara was preggers with a Stark child, and wanted to meet her niece or nephew. While travelling, Rhaegar or Arthus came upon her and captured her. Thus the ToJ was named because Rhaegar captured (perhaps raped, perhaps not) an important political figure.
2. Ashara leaves court and same as above, gets caught at the tower. Rhaegar, already acquainted with her, finally finds a place where the two can be together without all the eyes of the royal court or his wife on them?
I'll grab my tinfoil hat...
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 18:25:45 GMT
I'm for two. I think Ned hid Lyanna with the Crannogmen because of Aerys persecution of her family and the danger this put her in. The place that not even the crows could find. Hiding with someone they both know and trust. And possibly to put her out of Robert's reach since she didn't want to marry him and he didn't want to force her since that would also make her a strategic target.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 18:25:50 GMT
I think Ned is mixing his memories of Lyanna and Ashara up. Maybe their deaths were similar? We know that Bael the Bard's Stark Maiden Lover had a similar death to Ashara. So was Lyanna's death similar in that her lover was Bael-ish and that her child is destined to kill his/her father? Thinking out loud. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last I never caught this parallel before. Wow. Hoster Tully met Petyr's father while fighting in the War of the Ninepenny Kings; interestingly enough, that same war was a springboard for other noble sons, namely Aerys II Targaryen, Tywin Lannister, and Steffon Baratheon. I also don't think it's insignificant that this is also the war that supposedly brought the last of the male Blackfyre line to an end. My gut tells me that all of this is connected and Petyr Baelish is the dot in the center. I've kicked the tires on Petyr being the last Reyne, since it would explain so well his hand in destroying the Lannisters. Bear with me on this part. I've also considered that Tywin's possible association with brothels (perhaps the one that built the tunnel to Chataya, also taking Shae as a lover) might mean a deeper connection with Petyr. Did Tywin take Reyne women as hostages and embrothelize them or something? Yeah I haven't worked this out. But if so, Petyr could be the result - a bastard Lannister/Reyne. Tywin gets chummy with Lord Baelish during the War then ships his bastard off to the Fingers to have Baelish raise Petyr as his own. Etc. Anyway... On the topic of the Tully girls, the name Lysa means to shed light on, to beam with light. And let's not forget that we were never privy to the entire letter she sent to Cat way back in book one (accusing the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn) and that the letter was sent to Maester Luwin hidden in a box that contained a very expensive glass telescope lens from Myr. You know what else came from Myr? The glass for the glass gardens of Winterfell where the blue roses are grown. Jon even wastes precious book-space in ADWD fantasizing about growing vegetables in Myr-glass greenhouses at Castle Black. So, boom, Petyr Bael-ish associated with Bael.
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 18:34:07 GMT
Bear with me on this part. I've also considered that Tywin's possible association with brothels (perhaps the one that built the tunnel to Chataya, also taking Shae as a lover) might mean a deeper connection with Petyr. Did Tywin take Reyne women as hostages and embrothelize them or something? Yeah I haven't worked this out. But if so, Petyr could be the result - a bastard Lannister/Reyne. Tywin gets chummy with Lord Baelish during the War then ships his bastard off to the Fingers to have Baelish raise Petyr as his own. Etc. I'm for this interpretation. Petyr is the Mockingbird; the egg that is laid in another bird's nest and then pushes the other chicks out. It's his capacity for managing money and tripling investment that put him in the court and then brings him under Tywin's perview. His ambition is to take everything including the throne. Tyrion is his first target.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 19:02:08 GMT
hid Lyanna with the Crannogmen because of Aerys persecution of her family and the danger this put her in. Ah be we have that passage about Dany being like Rhegar, i.e. protecting the innocent. As an aside look at what happened to MMD. Plays into the idea of there being a ritual at the ToJ, doesn't it?
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 19:12:49 GMT
hid Lyanna with the Crannogmen because of Aerys persecution of her family and the danger this put her in. Ah be we have that passage about Dany being like Rhegar, i.e. protecting the innocent. As an aside look at what happened to MMD. Plays into the idea of there being a ritual at the ToJ, doesn't it? I just think it's a stretch at this point.. Dany and Rhaegar may have been alike in temperment and morality.
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 19:20:38 GMT
I think Ned is mixing his memories of Lyanna and Ashara up. Maybe their deaths were similar? I've changed my mind! I think you are right about this. In Ned's narrative about Lyanna; she isn't in a bed of blood; but the room that smells of blood and roses. She doesn't scream out his name or call him Lord Eddard. She makes him promise her stuff. I think in a number of dream sequences, one face will morph into another. In Ned's fever dream; hes sees a bed of blood, someone screams his name and calls him Lord Eddard. If the story of Ashara jumpinng off the tower is true; then this could be Ashara instead of Lyanna; who screams his name when she learns her brother is killed and calls him Lord Eddard on her death bed; the bed of blood; when she is seeking promises to protect her sons. If Ned hadn't been awakened; Lyanna's face might have been replaced with Ashara's. This makes sense to me. That would mean that Ned was responsible for hiding fAegon. I think it was surmised somewhere that Septa Lamore was Haldon Half-Maester's daughter.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 14, 2016 19:23:38 GMT
I'm for two. I think Ned hid Lyanna with the Crannogmen because of Aerys persecution of her family and the danger this put her in. The place that not even the crows could find. Hiding with someone they both know and trust. And possibly to put her out of Robert's reach since she didn't want to marry him and he didn't want to force her since that would also make her a strategic target. Actually,Lyanna never says she doesn't want the marry Robert,of all the arrangements that have been made in this series that was important for us to see.She never voices anything other than her concern that love would never change Robert's nature and keep him in one bed. But to your other i can see the possibility of Ned with a bit of help concealing Lyanna when IMO she found out she was preggers.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 19:25:54 GMT
I've kicked the tires on Petyr being the last Reyne, since it would explain so well his hand in destroying the Lannisters. Bear with me on this part. I've also considered that Tywin's possible association with brothels (perhaps the one that built the tunnel to Chataya, also taking Shae as a lover) might mean a deeper connection with Petyr. Did Tywin take Reyne women as hostages and embrothelize them or something? Yeah I haven't worked this out. But if so, Petyr could be the result - a bastard Lannister/Reyne. Tywin gets chummy with Lord Baelish during the War then ships his bastard off to the Fingers to have Baelish raise Petyr as his own. Etc. I started mulling on your Last Reyne theory after I posted upthread...you know I'm a fan in general, and I think I want to hammer that out in a different thread because there *might* be a way to link him to the Targaryens too. Maybe.
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 19:45:50 GMT
Ned with a bit of help concealing Lyanna when IMO she found out she was preggers. Preggers by whom? Starkcest?
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 14, 2016 20:00:56 GMT
Ah be we have that passage about Dany being like Rhegar, i.e. protecting the innocent. As an aside look at what happened to MMD. Plays into the idea of there being a ritual at the ToJ, doesn't it? I just think it's a stretch at this point.. Dany and Rhaegar may have been alike in temperment and morality. We got more than that.We have Dany actually seeing herself in Rhaegar's armour(Can't find that one now).Anyone see a Star wars connection? Luke seeing himself in Vader's helmet. " That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened" If Rhegar was the last Dragon": There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce. I think this is a twofold meaning.The Dragon is Rhaegar and she was her blood and we even have the connection of the Dragon(Rhaegar) singing to her.He made a song for her to.Here are other dreams: "In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. (Daenerys, ADWD. She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone. (Daenerys, AGOT). Could this be connecting the bloody stone Ned used to make the cairns at toj.Could the toj be where Ashara and Rhaegar had a life. "The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. (Daenerys, AGOT). Wherever the red door was,were the arms that made her feel safe and that wasn't Ser Willem Darry. The connection to her and Rhaegar goes way beyond them having the same temperment and morality ( we know nothing about his temperment to be honest).It her as him,her as his blood the connection of that and the last dragon statement.
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Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 14, 2016 20:03:51 GMT
Preggers by whom? Starkcest? Oh my belief is that Robert Baratheon did the deed. "R" + L = J
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 20:20:04 GMT
Oh my belief is that Robert Baratheon did the deed Can't be denied that it's a strong case. But Ugh! Not a fan of Robert. LOL Why does Robert persist with the story that she was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar? If Ned knew where she was hiding; why didn't he tell Robert? Or did she flee on her own? I still think Ned is Jon's father. It's Jon's mother he keeps silent about. Jon's favorite stories are about young King Darion. I can see Ned regaling Jon with stories about King Robert for the same reason. He loves Jon but he will never be a Stark, never his father's heir. Ned's experience growing up with the king is a way of sharing a private part of himself with Jon only. It's a bit of the oral tradition, a way of handing down stories. Something that Jon would tell his kids about his father. It's a way of remembering Ned.... "My Father used to tell me stories about King Robert. Do you want to hear one?" I think what Ned is doing is giving Jon a piece of himself. He gives him what he can since he can't give him a name or a title. I would say that the most obvious candidate that people overlook isn't Robert, but Ned.
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Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 20:26:58 GMT
The connection to her and Rhaegar goes way beyond them having the same temperment and morality ( we know nothing about his temperment to be honest).It her as him,her as his blood the connection of that and the last dragon statement. Dany is Rhaegar's blood in the same sense that Jon is Ned's blood?
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