|
Post by wolfmaid7 on Aug 14, 2016 22:02:05 GMT
Can't be denied that it's a strong case. But Ugh! Not a fan of Robert. LOL Why does Robert persist with the story that she was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar? If Ned knew where she was hiding; why didn't he tell Robert? Or did she flee on her own? I still think Ned is Jon's father. It's Jon's mother he keeps silent about. Jon's favorite stories are about young King Darion. I can see Ned regaling Jon with stories about King Robert for the same reason. He loves Jon but he will never be a Stark, never his father's heir. Ned's experience growing up with the king is a way of sharing a private part of himself with Jon only. It's a bit of the oral tradition, a way of handing down stories. Something that Jon would tell his kids about his father. It's a way of remembering Ned.... "My Father used to tell me stories about King Robert. Do you want to hear one?" I think what Ned is doing is giving Jon a piece of himself. He gives him what he can since he can't give him a name or a title. I would say that the most obvious candidate that people overlook isn't Robert, but Ned. Don't like him either,on account of my bias against drunk men.Robert ofcourse doesn't know because Ned made the choice not to tell him for imo his own reasons.Which seemed like a good idea based on the circumstances.Circumstances being who Robert was surrounded by after he took the throne.Jon was better off with Ned and what ever Ned would or would not have told him eventually doesn't overlook tha Ned esentially became Jon's father in every sense of the what the word means.He raised him an loved him like a son.His beloved sister's son who grew to call him father,i think that plays a big part in why Ned would have told Robert besides the physical and emotional saftery issues which would have been problematic had Jon been at KL with Robert. There's no need for Ned to tell Jon about Robert's greatest feats especially if "he" Ned had some amazing victories in the war as well.There's no need to speak often to Jon at all about Robert.Yet the author made it a point through Jon to tell us that Ned had spoken about Robert often to him.A private part that wasn't private.Ned wasn't talking about himself to Jon,he was speaking about Robert to Jon.I know the gist behind oral stories,and why they would be handed down and what they would seek to preserve. Like the Rhaegar and Dany its a matter of context.Their's little context between Dany and Aerys for instance.No connectivity beyond Selmy watching her to see if she's like Aerys.Only to point out over and over she's like Rhaegar. Lastly,the 93 letter already Xed Ned out as Jon's father.That was icing on the cake of clues pointing to him not being Jon's dad.Sure,GRRM could leave it as is.But too many clues exist that he isn't Ned's biological father.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Aug 14, 2016 22:18:08 GMT
Lastly,the 93 letter already Xed Ned out as Jon's father. I'm not familiar with this. Do you have a link?
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 22:24:17 GMT
Lastly,the 93 letter already Xed Ned out as Jon's father. I'm not familiar with this. Do you have a link? I don't know what this is either. Unless this is the letter BC includes at the beginning of the Heresy threads. How much can we trust that he didn't change things around?
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 0:47:41 GMT
This bit:
Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 2:04:18 GMT
I'm still bamboozled by Robert's obsession that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. If Rhaegar called out anyone's name at the Trident it would be Ashara; the woman he couldn't marry but only give his sword, shield and horse. So I wonder if it was Elder Brother who called out Lyanna's name since he also fell into the Trident and loved a woman he couldn't marry. If he was fighting close quarters with Rhaegar and Robert and yelled out Lyanna's name; it's possible that Robert heard him and thought it was Rhaegar. How would you tell who was speaking with helms on. That might explain the confusion and the obsession.
However, Elder Brother says that he fell in love with the younger daughter of a lower Lord. Were the Starks considered lower in status than the Tully's. Were they marrying up? It's confusing because when he says younger daughter that would be relative to an older daughter which brings to mind Lysa and Cat. But Cat never says anything about being at the Tourney. So I don't know if younger just means that Lyanna was the younger Stark. ....UGH
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 2:29:30 GMT
Were the Starks considered lower in status than the Tully's. Heck no! House Stark is a Great House, not just a Noble House.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 7:00:40 GMT
Were the Starks considered lower in status than the Tully's. Heck no! House Stark is a Great House, not just a Noble House. OK. Thank god somebody knows about this stuff, because I sure don't. Anyway, I think I've figured out what happened at the tourney. 1) Hoster Tully goes to Harrenhal. How can he not, it's a vassal house putting on a show with the luminaries of the land and the king, famed knights attending. He brings his ward Petyr and Lysa with him. He leaves Cat in charge at home, as his heir, as she sometimes says he does. He has marriage contracts on his mind. 2) Richard Stark also has marriage contracts on his mind, his Southron ambitions. Lyanna is already betrothed, so it's Rickard and Ned he's looking to match. 3) Also attending is Arthur Dayne's unknown younger brother. Later known as the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle. He is the 3rd youngest son of a family of knights currently in service of House Blount and representing them at the Tourney as the Porcupine Knight. 4) A marriage contract is offered by Arthur Dayne on behalf of his brother, The Porcupine Knight for Hoster's younger daughter Lysa and Petyr is squired with the knight for the tourney. 5) Rickard Stark offers Brandon to Hoster for a contact with Catelyn. And he offers Ned to Arthur Dayne for Ashara. 6) When Petyr learns that both Catelyn and Lysa have been contracted; he is both jealous and furious. He falls in with a group of squires who bully Howland. Lyanna shames them. This is the second blow to Petyr at the hands of the Starks. 7) Petyr is squired to a man who drinks and forces women; something that is likely to occur with maids and servant girls at a tourney. Something Petyr witnesses the Porcupine Knight engage in. 8) Ser Arthur tells his brother that he has offered him in a marriage contract to Hoster Tully's younger daughter. He asks his squire; Hoster's ward to point her out to him. Instead of pointing out Lyssa, he points out Lyanna. The Porcupine Knight falls in love with her but true to his character; attacks and forces her. 9) Lyanna tells nobody but instead takes matters in to her own hands and shames the Knights in the lists in front of everyone. This infuriates Aerys who orders Rhaegar to investigate and bring him the KotLT. The Porcupine Knight confesses to his older brother his offense against Lyanna the younger daughter of Hoster Tully. Ser Arthur asks him how he got that information and he tells him that Hoster's ward pointed her out to him. Ser Arthur tells his brother that he will withdraw the offer of marriage; because he is too "lowly" a knight and sends him away none the wiser. 10) Ser Arthur tells Rhaegar what has happened and also Rickard, Hoster, Brandon and Ned. Under the circumstances the contract between Ashara and Ned falls apart. It's kept under wraps to protect Lyanna's reputation and it creates complications for her betrothal to Robert. Rhaegar acknowledges what has happened to Lyanna by crowning her queen of love and beauty. 11) The Starks return to Riverrun to tell Catelyn of her betrothal to Brandon. The Starks are furious about Petyr's part in their sister's attack but can nothing about it because Hoster has taken the Pledge to Protect and no harm can come to him while under Hoster's protection. His only course of action is to send Petyr home in disgrace. When Petyr learns of this he challenges Brandon for Catelyn. Brandon reaches his limit with Petyr and slices him up the belly. 12) At the Battle of the Trident; the Porcupine Knight is fighting in close quarters with Rhaegar and Robert. When he is struck down; he yells out Lyanna's name. This is what Robert hears when he strikes Rhaegar down and thinks it's Rhaegar calling Lyanna's name instead. This is why he is obsessed with Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna. That and the crown of roses and that she goes missing at some point and has no inforamtion about it other than what he creates in his own head.
|
|
|
Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 10:57:25 GMT
3) Also attending is Arthur Dayne's unknown younger brother. Later known as the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle. He is the 3rd youngest son of a family of knights currently in service of House Blount and representing them at the Tourney as the Porcupine Knight. Sorry to rain on your party with a few facts, but I have to bring some things to your attention. The Daynes are a noble House in service to House Dayne, while House Blount is from the Crownlands, the overlord of which would be the King. Rickard Stark was making marriage alliances outside the north by promising his heir to a Riverland lord, and he sent his spare heir to a house in the Vale. His actions were highly unusual as Great Houses typically intermarried with their own bannermen in order to draw them more closely as allies. This is the definition of "southron ambitions". With this in mind, then any son of a Dayne would more likely squire with a house within their own region under Dorne, while any squire of House Blount would come from the Crownlands. Going outside your own region would be seen as an alliance. Arthur doesn't have a younger brother. He has an unnamed older brother and two younger sisters, Ashara and Allyria. I do find it plausible that Petyr could have attended the Harrenhal tourney as Hoster's ward, but if he was anyone's squire then he wouldn't have been living with the Tullys. Rickard had already arranged the match between Brandon and Catelyn prior to the tourney. It happened earlier, because Jaime was promised to Lysa at the same time. Since Jaime became a Kingsguard at Harrenhal, we know the marriage contracts had happened earlier. Robert and Lyanna were also promised prior to Harrenhal. It was the marriage alliances that drew Aerys suspicions that the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar to gather support. I want to help you find incriminating evidence against Petyr, but I think his story begins with his father being indebted to either Jon Arryn, or Tywin Lannister. Petyr loved Catelyn, but she thought of him as a brother. He turned to Lysa for comfort, and that's where the competition between Lysa and Catelyn came from, but it was one sided with Lysa trying to win Petyr's affection. Petyr's duel with Brandon was an attempt to win Catelyn's affections, but Brandon being from a Great House while Petyr was only the second generation of landed knights with his father being the smallest of lords was the reason why Brandon viewed the challenge as a great insult.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 12:15:05 GMT
The only thing I see in the wiki is that Arthur has an unknown brother and Gerold Dayne who may be a brother or half brother. Edric Dayne may or may not be the son of the unknown brother.
I don't think it's impossible that a knight in a family of Knights is pledged to serve another house especially a third son who has nothing to offer any woman of noble birth but the shirt off his back. Or his sword, shield and horse as Elder brother tells Brienne. Or if this is how the Porcupine Knight came to be in the service of House Blount who's own member Boros Blount is a kingsguard along with Ser Arthur.
Is there anyone in House Blount who fits the bill for the third son? There is no family tree for them whatsoever. Boris Blount a craven; was not at Harrenhall Tourney. He is mentioned at the tourney of Lannisport. All it says about the tourney at Harrenhall is that a member of house Blount fought in the lists.
The wiki also says that Arthur and Oswell Went kidnapped Lyanna. So more BS.
So can a knight become a member of another House for any reason? Would your older brother try to increase the fortune of the youngest son by making a match with another house? Would he put you in the service of another member of the kingsguard?
Elder Brother specifically says that he loved the younger daughter of another house but he was too "lowly" to marry her. To me that ties in with Hoster Tully trying to find a match for Lysa.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 13:11:08 GMT
Petyr's duel with Brandon was an attempt to win Catelyn's affections I think this ties in with the idea that you can't marry the one you love: - Petyr can't marry Catelyn - Ned can't marry Ashara - Porcupine Night can't marry Lysa - Lysa can't marry Petyr - Rhaegar can't marry Ashara Peytr finds out Cat is betrothed to a Stark and is pissed off/heartbroken; then he is belittled by another Stark and a girl at that; then he lies to the Porcupine Knight about Hoster's younger daughter, telling him it's Lyanna rather than Lysa. Lyanna is attacked by a love struck, drunken Porcupine Knight. Petyr has his revenge on the Starks and Hoster Tully. He also gets his first lesson in fashioning another into a weapon to use against your enemy. Something he does with some skill when he tells Cat and Ned that the assassin's knife belonged to Tyrion. Cat then captures and prosecutes Tyrion. The problem for Petyr the first time around is that the truth is already known so he can't continue to lie about what happened. When they return to Riverrun, he learns that he is being sent back to the Fingers and challenges Brandon in a desperation move and loses. Another reason to hate the Starks.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 13:34:50 GMT
Rickard had already arranged the match between Brandon and Catelyn prior to the tourney. It happened earlier, because Jaime was promised to Lysa at the same time. Since Jaime became a Kingsguard at Harrenhal, we know the marriage contracts had happened earlier. Robert and Lyanna were also promised prior to Harrenhal. It was the marriage alliances that drew Aerys suspicions that the tourney was a cover for Rhaegar to gather support. I see, so a new match has to be made for Lysa anyway. I knew about Lyanna and Robert; that probably doesn't matter much to Petyr. He probably has some resentment concerning a prior arrangement for Catelyn. Yes, totally agree that Aerys was suspicious of all these arrangements. Then his son up and makes Lyanna the queen of love and beauty to boot.
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 14:06:40 GMT
I'm having a hard time following this, tbh.
Mel is correct, though - House Blount (porcupine) is a lesser Crownlands house, and would have had pretty much zero association with House Dayne. Also, Arthur Dayne as a member of KG would have given up all rights to name/deed/title associated with House Dayne upon taking the oath, and therefore would have no power to broker any marriage deals for anyone anymore. He is also the second son, so all decisions such as marriage offers and alliances would be courtesy of either his father (if still living) or his older brother, Edric Dayne's father, who would be Lord of Starfall.
Last thing, I'm not sure what you mean by "brother" of Arthur, i.e. natural blood kin or KG brother, but just to clarify that Boros Blount didn't become a KG until after the Rebellion - he was one of several appointed by Robert Baratheon as a replacement to all of Aerys' KG lost in the war. So, Arthur would not have had a Porcupine 'brother' in any respect at the time of the tourney of Harrenhal.
|
|
|
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 15, 2016 14:20:04 GMT
Also attending is Arthur Dayne's unknown younger brother. Later known as the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle. He is the 3rd youngest son of a family of knights currently in service of House Blount and representing them at the Tourney as the Porcupine Knight. Elder Brother might turn out to be someone interesting (possibly a Darry?) but he says the following to Brienne: So he has/had multiple grown brothers, and his father was a Knight. And he could not be related to someone close to Rhaegar, because he says this:
|
|
|
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 14:24:19 GMT
And this: I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord indicates that EB is from a lesser lesser house...like a bannerman's bannerman. House Haigh would be a good example: Haigh serves Frey, Frey serves Tully, Tully serves the Crown.
|
|
|
Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 14:39:48 GMT
And this: I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord indicates that EB is from a lesser lesser house...like a bannerman's bannerman. House Haigh would be a good example: Haigh serves Frey, Frey serves Tully, Tully serves the Crown. Oh great information! I think this is the person offered to the Tully's for the hand of the younger daughter. And the person to whom Petyr was in service as a squire for the tourney. The person who dishonored himself at the tourney; with a history of forcing himself on other women. So knights of other houses can be in the service of another house. We're given the information that the squires were Freys (twin towers), Blount (Porcupine), House Haig (three pronged spear). So perhaps Lyanna was attacked by knight of House Haigh. Would Petyr have been squired with a house of his own status? We might not know his name other than he later becomes Elder Brother. But the premise could still stand without the confusing bits about Arthur's brother. It might also be worth noting the similarity between the sigil of House Haig and Howland's three pronged spear. Something that it taken away from him. Even if Petyr wasn't one of the squires or squired for someone else; it would be known that he was a ward of House Tully and would be able to point out the Lord's younger daughter to the Knight of House Haig. If Rhaegar then investigates what is behind the shaming of the three knights; it stands to follow that he would question the squires involved; which might have led him to question the Knights themselves and a confession. Confusion about the knight mistaking Lyanna for Hoster's younger daughter would uncover Petyr's lie and his part in it. Which would then lead to the events that followed at Riverrun.
|
|