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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 15:14:03 GMT
Sorry to rain on your party with a few facts, but I have to bring some things to your attention. You can rain on my parade any time you want. I can always use a little rain.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 15:15:21 GMT
Dany is Rhaegar's blood in the same sense that Jon is Ned's blood? And look how closely Jon mimics Ned. I could rattle off half a hundred ways, but I won't bore everyone.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 16:56:23 GMT
While I can't say I'm on board with the rest of the theory, this: 1) Hoster Tully goes to Harrenhal. How can he not, it's a vassal house putting on a show with the luminaries of the land and the king, famed knights attending. He brings his ward Petyr and Lysa with him. He leaves Cat in charge at home, as his heir, as she sometimes says he does. caught my eye. You are absolutely correct: Hoster Tully and his charges SHOULD by all accounts be at that tourney...yet absolutely nothing indicates they were there. No POV first person recollections, no mentions by other characters who were present, no recount of any "trout" present in Meera's KotLT story. No Tullys are mentioned in the World Book, and even the contracted drawings of the crowd don't have them present in the stands. Jon Arryn was there for the Vale. Robert as Lord of Storm's End was there. All of the Stark kids were there, but Rickard was not - but his staying behind to be the Stark in Winterfell while the rest of the family traveled makes sense. Mace Tyrell was there for the Reach. Oberyn Martell was there for Dorne (Doran couldn't travel). Tywin Lannister was NOT there because he had quit the Handship and returned to Casterly Rock. Aerys and Rhaegar for the Crown, of course. Greyjoys don't care for the traditions of the greenlanders so wouldn't have been there anyway. That leaves House Tully as the last great house of Westeros absent without a believable excuse from the greatest tourney of all time hosted by one of their own liege houses. What...the...? Catelyn was already betrothed to Brandon so this would have been a prime opportunity for them to associate, and Hoster needed a new betrothal for Lysa and also one for Edmure, now that Jaime and Cersei were out of the running. Why would they not have been there? Also, there's no mention of any Hightowers present other than Ser Gerold - and although House Hightower is sworn to House Tyrell, they are still considered a great house due to their wealth and age. Where were the Tullys and the Hightowers? ? I SMELL A MYSTERY!
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 17:00:14 GMT
1) Hoster Tully goes to Harrenhal. How can he not, it's a vassal house putting on a show with the luminaries of the land and the king, famed knights attending. He brings his ward Petyr and Lysa with him. He leaves Cat in charge at home, as his heir, as she sometimes says he does. He has marriage contracts on his mind. While I agree with you, the Tullys should have been mentioned as being at the tourney, especially with the Whent connection, it is never noted they are there. So perhaps they did not attend due to Hoster's first coming down with whatever illness that ultimately killed him. That's pure speculation on my part, but the fact is, the Tullys where not there, as far as we know. There are nil on them being present. And you would think they'd be seated with the other lords when Lyanna got her crown, since Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn, just at Robert was betrothed to Lyanna. However, Catelyn is not there. Nor is she around for the dancing. And he offers Ned to Arthur Dayne for Ashara. Actually, I think there is evidence against this. Ned was too shy to ask Ashara to dance. If he were betrothed to her, he'd not be so shy, neither would he ever have any need for an intermediary like his brother. Just look at how he treats Cat after they become betrothed. Yes he's still shy and solemn, that's his temperament at the time, but he does not hesitate to demand his due from her. With this in mind, then any son of a Dayne would more likely squire with a house within their own region under Dorne, while any squire of House Blount would come from the Crownlands. Going outside your own region would be seen as an alliance. I agree, most squires serve their local lords with two exceptions -- when the squire is squiring for his future family member, like Edric Dayne (Dorne) is for Dondarrion (Stormlands)*; or when the squire is serving a greater lord as a sign of respect, or for the privilege of it, the way Lancel (Westerlands) serves Robert (King, Stormlands). *Also Stannis uses Florents as his squires due to his wife's family. I do find it plausible that Petyr could have attended the Harrenhal tourney as Hoster's ward, but if he was anyone's squire then he wouldn't have been living with the Tullys. I agree. In fact Martin goes out of his way to say Petyr was taken out of pity. His lands are poor indeed. Hoster took him not only as hostage (like Theon) but to help the boy along in life. He was resentful that the boy aspired to marry on of his daughters. Worse, he goes to the extreme of having Lysa take something to kill Petyr's child, knowing it might kill his daughter as well. That to me speaks of how much he thought Petyr unworthy to be part of his family. Gerold Dayne who may be a brother or half brother. Edric Dayne may or may not be the son of the unknown brother. No Gerold Dayne, or Darkstar, is part of the cadet branch of the Dayne family. The Starks have cadet branches as well, one of which grew to be house Karstark, but there are more. So can a knight become a member of another House for any reason? Would your older brother try to increase the fortune of the youngest son by making a match with another house? Would he put you in the service of another member of the kingsguard? To the first part, no. A woman can be married into another house and become a solid member of that house, just look at Catelyn Stark, but not a man. Additionally a brother (i.e. son) cannot broker any sort of marriage deals. It is always the head of the house that does this. The only way a brother can broker a deal for a younger brother or sister is if he is already head of the House. Brandon and Ned could not marry the women they loved because it was not up to them. This serves as a clear example. Elder Brother specifically says that he loved the younger daughter of another house but he was too "lowly" to marry her. To me that ties in with Hoster Tully trying to find a match for Lysa. Again, just the opposite. Hoster subjects Lysa to a dangerous abortion in order to secure her a greater standing with a house that is also Warden. Sullied or not, she is still a daughter of a great house and to marry a nobody would be a disgrace.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 17:05:07 GMT
Worse, he goes to the extreme of having Lysa take something to kill Petyr's child, knowing it might kill his daughter as well. That to me speaks of how much he thought Petyr unworthy to be part of his family. Or perhaps - total crackpot - how dangerous it might be to his family if the child bore a...distinct look???
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 17:06:27 GMT
Or perhaps - total crackpot - how dangerous it might be to his family if the child bore a...distinct look??? Ah Ha! I hadn't thought of that.
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 17:10:19 GMT
I guess I have to go with this approach as described by the author of the Haldr link I posted on the Hodor thread:
To fill in the gaps, to restore much of what has been lost, we need an approach that is at the same time more critical and more intuitive. We must identify elements that are common to multiple sources, fit them together to form a more comprehensive framework, and add uncorroborated details only cautiously and tentatively.
So even though Hoster is not specifically mentioned; is it likely that he would be there. The wiki says he is a travelling man and sometimes takes his ward and daughters with him. That must come from text somewhere. Catelyn says that sometimes Hoster would leave her at Riverrun when he travelled since she was the heir in absence of his brother.
Would it be common practice for Lords to assign his ward to another Knight at the tournament as his squire for training and involvement in the Tourney in some way. This would have been very exciting for Bran for example. Ned seems to do the same with Theon; he is both his ward and his squire. The whole thing does have a bit of a fairground atmosphere.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 17:16:05 GMT
[segue] Ah Ha! I hadn't thought of that. I always found it odd that Aurane Waters, the Bastard of Driftmark from House Velaryon, shares many physical features and personality characteristics with Petyr Baelish. The grey-green eyes, the narrow face, the thin frame, etc. And read some of his comments in the council meetings...it's like Littlefinger is sitting there talking out of his mouth. And then recall that Cersei thinks Aurane looks an awful lot like Rhaegar. And then of course he totally screws her by pretending to be her ally and then stealing her ships for himself. Total Baelish move. Something's up. Again, I think this goes back to Petyr's forebears and their activity in Essos. [/segue]
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 17:18:44 GMT
We must identify elements that are common to multiple sources, fit them together to form a more comprehensive framework, and add uncorroborated details only cautiously and tentatively. Well, imo, the element that is common to multiple sources is that Hoster and the other Tullys weren't there. Assuming that they were because they should be is the uncorroborated detail that should be applied cautiously and tentatively.
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 17:28:09 GMT
Again, just the opposite. Hoster subjects Lysa to a dangerous abortion in order to secure her a greater standing with a house that is also Warden. Sullied or not, she is still a daughter of a great house and to marry a nobody would be a disgrace I have revised the notion that Elder Brother is related to Arthur Dayne since House Haig fits the description of Elder Brother better. I'm not sure if this fits with his story that he disgraced himself with the younger daughter of the House he was offered in marriage contract but was too lowly a knight. Whether this is Lyanna or not or if he was at the tourney as the knight representing House Haig. If the Tully's weren't there it would follow that Petyr wasn't there unless some of the Tully household went and took him with them. Boros Blount isn't there either just members of his house. Would Hoster beg off because of illness and age? Most of what is known about the Knight of the Laughing Tree comes from a story told by Meera Reed to Bran Stark. As an introduction to her story, Meera suggests that this knight "might have been a crannogman", to which Jojen Reed adds "or not". Jojen expects Bran to have heard this tale "a hundred times" from his father, Eddard Stark, but Bran denies any knowledge of the tale. He later explains that Old Nan was the one narrating stories to him, not his father.[2] - wiki Would Howland have been able to recognize everyone who was attending if he didn't know any of them? Is it likely that the Tully's would be there and they are left out of the story for that reason. They didn't put anyone in the lists and Meera identifies everyone by their sigil. Is this what GRRM calls the unreliable narrator?
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 17:29:04 GMT
It would be highly suspicious to Aerys if there were Great Houses missing. You'd think that attendance would be mandatory. I messed up this post, I meant quote Some Pig. LOL.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 17:55:30 GMT
I think you're on to something with the Elder Brother. However, again I caution you with a brother making marriage plans. If that is the case, then the father who is Knight is no longer in existence. Making the brother, the lord.
Mind you The Elder Brother is of an age to attend, and since we don't know who he is or who his house is, any speculation would be just that.
Now that does not mean your are wrong. I would just get the facts in order so that the whole story fits within the framework we have. That framework has a lot of leeway since it is, in the main, a third hand story.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 15, 2016 18:13:41 GMT
Would Howland have been able to recognize everyone who was attending if he didn't know any of them? Is it likely that the Tully's would be there and they are left out of the story for that reason. They didn't put anyone in the lists and Meera identifies everyone by their sigil. Is this what GRRM calls the unreliable narrator? Meera notes that the twin towers sigil is one that all crannogmen know very well - House Frey. House Frey serves House Tully, so it seems logical that if Howland knows the sigil of the Riverlands Freys, he would also know the sigil of the Riverlands Tullys, their ruling house. Howland also notes other sigils at the celebration - the knight of skulls and kisses, the griffin, the red snake, etc. That last one is telling because that is specifically describing Oberyn the Red Viper and not the sun sigil of Martell. So, I would think if he knows these well enough he would also know the Tully trout, and it is notably not mentioned. Now the Tullys very well COULD have been there...that would certainly explain ShowFinger's presence there. That begs the question of why GRRM deliberately chose to have the Tullys omitted from every single recount of this tourney. Meera's tale does specifically state that "the lion of the Rock" had stayed away due to a quarrel with the king, but "the storm lord" and "the rose lord" were there. Why not "the trout lord" as either present OR absent? Suspicious.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 18:18:40 GMT
The only thing I see in the wiki is that Arthur has an unknown brother and Gerold Dayne who may be a brother or half brother. Edric Dayne may or may not be the son of the unknown brother. ninja'd by Ser Duncan! Ser Gerold is Darkstar and from a cadet branch. So can a knight become a member of another House for any reason A younger son may take over as his father-in-law's heir if he only had a daughter. For example, if Brienne were to marry a prospective knight husband might become Lord of Tarth. When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. Sounds like a lesser house that was supposed to be bannerman to Storm's End, but chose to stay a loyalist to the crown. And the person to whom Petyr was in service as a squire for the tourney. Petyr lived with the Tullys, so if he was anybody's squire it would be Hoster. I agree, most squires serve their local lords with two exceptions -- when the squire is squiring for his future family member, like Edric Dayne (Dorne) is for Dondarrion (Stormlands)*; or when the squire is serving a greater lord as a sign of respect, or for the privilege of it, the way Lancel (Westerlands) serves Robert (King, Stormlands). I stand corrected. I should have included "family members". Most of what is known about the Knight of the Laughing Tree comes from a story told by Meera Reed to Bran Stark. As an introduction to her story, Meera suggests that this knight "might have been a crannogman", to which Jojen Reed adds "or not". Jojen expects Bran to have heard this tale "a hundred times" from his father, Eddard Stark, but Bran denies any knowledge of the tale. He later explains that Old Nan was the one narrating stories to him, not his father. To me this playful "might be" or "may not be" a crannogman suggests that he and Ned made one knight. It's my crackpot theory that Ned warged a willing Howland and together they made one knight of the laughing tree. A parallel to Bran and Hodor only with a willing host.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 18:32:31 GMT
A younger son may take over as his father-in-law's heir if he only had a daughter. For example, if Brienne were to marry a prospective knight husband might become Lord of Tarth. I stand corrected too Very true, a man can take on the name of a House higher than him. Plus we know a half wildling, bastard can even take the name of his grandfather, when the House is in jeopardy of losing heirs altogether.
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