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Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 12:46:44 GMT
Posted at Westeros:
This is about the communication problem or language problem between corvids and people. There's a similarity between how Mormont's raven and Hodor communicate with the world.
Corn, corn, corn.... Jon Snow corn, king.... Hodor, hodor, hodor.
How do the CotF learn the common tongue? They go out into the world according to Leaf. Is it coincidence that Bran is suddenly transported into Hodor's body during the fight with the wights at the Greenseers cave; when Leaf shows up with fire? Even with Bran's full set of faculties; Hodor can only say Hodor. That's not the case when Varamyr takes someone else's body from them. You might say the difference is that Hodor's mind has been damaged and yet he seems to comprehend well enough and has a full range of emotion. Did a previous rider leave behind the inability to communicate in the common tongue? So far, Leaf is the only CotF that we know who can communicate in the common tongue. I'm not sure what going out into the world means.
Hodor is afraid of the wights but not the CotF. He's afraid of the crypts when Ned's ghost appears to Bran and Rickon but not before or after. He's not any more or less afraid of Coldhands than the rest of them. Was it really Ned's ghost that appeared in their dream or something else. Something that Bran, Summer and Hodor can sense within Shaggy Dog. Something hateful, something that would have killed Bran given a chance. It almost feels like Bran and Rickon were lured to the crypts with the dream. Something that Summer expels.
And something that still remains a part of Hodor also fears.
At this point, I am wondering if Leaf had something to do with Hodor's condition. If she went out into the world to learn the common tongue; did she return around the time that Bloodraven is called to the Cave of the Greenseer. She seems to be the only CotF who can communicate in the common tongue or who can speak to Bloodraven about what he sees in the wiernet. She doesn't know what Bran sees and has to get that information in the common tongue. I assume the same is true for Bloodraven.
So I'm wondering if she returned from the outside world using a cave system that runs under the wall from the winterfell crypts and if she needed Hodor's strength to open the door or hold the door for her. Also if this is around the time that Bloodraven is called to the Cave of the Greenseer since she can now communicate with him in the common tongue. Did something try to stop her in order to prevent Bloodraven from becoming a Greenseer and eventually communicating with Bran.
I'm also reminded of the assassination attempt on Bran. If you can't get to Bloodraven, then kill the replacement.
I'm befuddled about guestimating ages and timelines. Can we assume that the D&D version is somewhat close given that GRRM did give them that bit about Hold the Door?
Mormont is elected Lord Commander in 288 AC, one assumes shortly after Bloodraven disappears. That's 11 years prior to the start of the story.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 13:08:10 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 13:08:10 GMT
From Weasel Pie on another thread:
It's never explicit in the book, but the mummer's show portrays Hodor being "of an age" with Ned and Lyanna. BookNed was 36 when he died, and a teenager in the tv-scene shown, so according the show, Hodor's hodoring happened a bit over 20 years ago. (Although the show takes some liberties).
But as I said, Hodor's age is never said outright in the books. If Nan is his great-grandmother and Hodor is mid-thirties, she would be in her 90's, maybe 100+ - which does fit with the narrative. Also Hodor has a brown beard in the novels, not grey as in the show, which is another point towards him being mid-thirties and not terribly older.
As an aside, I've always believed Hodor was near in age to Ned and Lyanna.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 13:46:43 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 13:46:43 GMT
Here's an interesting bit from CoK Bran VII. They have been hiding in the crypts and decide to leave. Hodor has to open the door because nobody else has the strength.
The door to the crypts was made of inronwood. It was old and heavy, and lay at a slant to the ground. Only one person could approach it at a tie. Osha tried once more when she reached it, but Bran could see that it was not budging. "Let Hodor try."
They had to pull Bran fro his basket first, so he would not get squished. Meera squatted beside him on the steps, one arm thrown protectively across his shoulders, as Osha and Hodor traded placed. "Open the door, Hodor," Bran said.
The huge stableboy put both hands flat on the door, pushed, and grunted. "Hodor?" He slammed his fist aainst the wood, and it did not so much as jump. "Hodor."
"Use your back," urged Bran. "And your legs."
Turning, Hodor plut his back to the wood and shoved. Again. Again. "Hodor!" He put one foot on a higher step so he was bent under the slant of the door and tried to rise. This ie the wood groaned and creaked. "Hodor!" The other foot came up a step, and Hodor spread his legs apart, braced, and striaghtened. His face turned red, and Bran could see cords in his neck bulging as a he strained against the weight above him. "Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor HODOR! From above came a dull ruble. Then suddenly the door jerked upward and a shaft of daylight fell across bran's face, blinding him for a moment. Another shove brought the sound of shifting stone, and then the way was open.
So not an easy door to open if you are the size of a child. It also seems to be a trapdoor, something that lifts upwards. And in Hodors words:
Hold the door, hold the door, hold the door, hold the door, HOLD THE DOOR!.....
This seems almost like Bran/Hodor's beserker episode outside the Cave of the Greenseer. So if Leaf was involved; was she trying to escape from pursuit into the crypts and Hodored Hodor in an emergency to open the door and hold it for her?
LOL! Always conjecture and circumstantial evidence.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 15:57:47 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 15:57:47 GMT
A few thoughts on Hodor.
- Hodor, for all his limited vocabulary, is quite sharp of mind. He understands every thing that is asked of him with little to no explanation or explicit instructions on how to do things. So while his mind may be traumatised, he's not brain damaged. His actions are no more or less proactive than say the average member of any support staff we've seen. None are willing to do more than their jobs. I think this is the norm among the working class. They follow orders, and when they have no orders, they retreat to their own worlds.
- Bran slips into Hodor accidentally. Keep in mind what Varamyr said, it is easier to slip the skin of a beast that has already been skinchanged previously. I think the reason is due to the subject fighting the intrusion. Thistle would rather mutilate herself than have Varamyr in there with her. Varamyr himself says the animals he subdued were difficult to get under his control. So this points to Hodor already having been skinchanged. Now whether that was a weirwood/time travelling Bran, we don't know. However I will say this:- If as a child/teenager someone who was close to him skinchanged him while developing their abilities, that would also account for his not resisting the takeover. Perhaps Benjen did so and it was found out? This could be a reason he chose to leave for the Wall, where being a skninchanger would be wiped clean and/or serve his penance, not to mention it would distance him from his familiar.
- There seems to be an element of super sensory perception about Hodor. He refused to enter the crypts when Ned's ghost/soul/being is reported as being there. Rickon goes to the crypts specifically to see he father. Bran dreams Ned is in the crypts and reaching out to him. Since no other Stark does this in their hour death, I wonder why Ned did, and how Hodor can know this. Perhaps Ned was a skinchanger that never got his direwolf, therefore he reaches through the boy's. Bloodraven said he watched Ned as well as Bran, so perhaps the ability was there, but not the catalyst. Now the curious thing is Hodor sensing it. Does this point to a pre-existing path between Hodor and Bran, even before Bran skinchanges him? Or is it the connection to Benjen that allows Ned to also contact Hodor? Or did Ned also skinchange Hodor at one point in his youth?
- Hodor seems to be non-violent to the extreme. I don't think Hodor went berserk - Bran did. Nor do I think he has any particular fear of the wights beyond what anyone would have. Hodor takes any violence or verbal abuse with a pacifists characteristics. He never fights back, just hunches his shoulders and takes it, or smiles and disregards it. True this would make Bran's taking him over easier, as we see multiple times, but it does not account for Bran accidentally taking Hodor over the first time.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 16:45:10 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 16:45:10 GMT
I'm not sure this was a time travelling event. I used to think that the ToJ was a time travelling event but it seems to me that Lyanna was long dead and never there. That there is an SSM somewhere confirming that only two people walked away from the ToJ supports the idea the tower was empty. So my time incursion conjecture is wrong.
Bran has ridden Hodor before, but I don't think it was the first time this happened and I don't think Bran was involved. The similarities between Mormont's raven attempting to communicate; sometimes effectively and the way Hodor communicates seems very similar to me. Recall Mormont's raven screaming Fire, Fire, Fire when Jon is attacked by Othor. That's completely different from corn, corn, corn. Asking for corn may be a trick the bird uses to be fed; but when it's being ridden it say things like Jon Snow corn King. Corn being a bit of glitch then corrected.
You could say that Hodor communicates in much the same way as the corvids, with Hodor substituting Hodor for corn. If he was ridden before then a part of the rider remains behind. The part that can't communicate effectively with humans and can only say Hodor must be the part that remains within him.
I bring up the CotF because Leaf is the only one who appears to understand the common tongue. She said she went out into the world to learn it. I think this was necessary in order to communicate with Bloodraven. When Bran has his first wierwood experience; she then asks him what he saw. She herself doesn't know. She needs the common tongue to find out. I suspect the same is true of Bloodraven and he wasn't just called by the trees; Leaf had to be able to talk to him.
There is something fishy about the assassination attempt on Brandon. I think there were forces at work who wanted to prevent Bran from becoming a greenseer. Moving him across the Wall into the Cave of the Greenseer might also provide a certain amount of safety. Previous to that Bloodraven who will eventually be his mentor. If you can't kill Bloodraven, go after the replacement. And likewise the translator, Leaf could be in some jeopardy out in the world for the same reason.
Is there any doubt that Leaf and the remaining CotF have the ability to skinchange? Most of the crows have had riders as BR explains to Bran. Who could that be but the CotF. If men forgot the language of the CotF; then it must follow that the CotF must learn the language of men.
So if Leaf was returning to the Cotf after being out in the world; is there a way there from the Crypt of Winterfell; another Black Gate that takes you to the back door down a sinkhole as Coldhands describes it? Was something in pursuit of Leaf and did she skinchange Hodor in an emergency to open the door to the crypts lacking the strength herself. This is what I'm suggesting. The part of her that was left behind was the communication problem.
When Bran finds himself suddenly inside Hodor during the fight with the wights; he didn't do this of his own volition athough he could have. This occurs just about the time Leaf shows up and I wonder if she shoved him from one body to another already having had experience with Hodor. His beserker state a combination of Bran and what remains of Leaf within Hodor. So then we have Hodor, Hodoring just as he does when he tries to open the doors to the crypts. He must have a memory of the first time he had to Hold the Door.
I think there are similarities between Bran hodoring Hodor in a crisisl and Leaf hodoring Hodor at the door of the Crypts in another crisis. When beset or pursued by foes.
I question what happened in Bran and Rickons dream of Ned. Because there are other agencies that can enter your dreams; not all are friendly. There is a part of Hodor that recognizes that something is not right in the crypts, something he fears, something he has experienced before. Bran and Summer also sense something. Summer stays at the door until Bran calls him. Then Shaggy Dogg attacks Luwin visciously. If Bran had gone in first; he may have been killed. So was this another assassination attempt. Was Rickon lured into the crypts so Shaggy could be used by an enemy and was Bran lured for the purpose of killing him? It's Summer who fights Shaggy and ejects the foe from the crypts.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 18:09:38 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 18:09:38 GMT
So I'm wondering if she returned from the outside world using a cave system that runs under the wall from the winterfell crypts and if she needed Hodor's strength to open the door or hold the door for her. You know I'm into the tunnels. It's not farfetched at all that the CotF used (or even originally created) them. Interesting direction with the crypt door - or even another door we don't know about in the crypts - as being Hodor's door. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor HODOR! I very much like how to paralleled this with "hold the door" it really drives it home. I'm in the camp of thinking D&D showed us exactly why Hodor means - although I don't believe they used the correct door. I was thinking the Black Gate for a while, or one of the gates into Castle Black, but I'm interested in the possibility of it being the crypt door. D&D conflated so much in their flashbacks so they could have all the events - Ned and Benjen sparring (takes the place of Lyanna and Benjen), Hodoring getting Hodored, etc. - take place on the same set at the same time. Keep in mind what Varamyr said, it is easier to slip the skin of a beast that has already been skinchanged previously. I think the reason is due to the subject fighting the intrusion. Thistle would rather mutilate herself than have Varamyr in there with her. Varamyr himself says the animals he subdued were difficult to get under his control. So this points to Hodor already having been skinchanged. Now whether that was a weirwood/time travelling Bran, we don't know. Pretty sure you know my take on this from my Bran the Timelord theory - relies heavily on Bran so easily sk-ing Hodor after Varamyr schools - which I won't belabor too much here, but when you said this... Or did Ned also skinchange Hodor at one point in his youth? I was like whoa - nice! That never occurred to me. And with the discussions about slipping into wolf skins while dreaming, I wonder if a SK'er could do the same with a human. After all Ned seems very muggle in his beliefs but would dismiss dream-warging as only a dream.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 18:16:54 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 18:16:54 GMT
Lots of great stuff here Min. And although I'm all over the tunnel theory (Winterfell connects with BR's cave) I don't think the CotF are needed to Hodor Hodor. I can't see Hodor's (Bran's) motivation to hold the door for Leaf, but I can see Hodor (Bran) holding the door for a family member or Meera. Further we alreayd have much more interesting SK-ers handy, Bran being the most prominent. And as Ser Duncan points out, Ned, Benjen... or even Lyanna!... could have been the original culprit. And not sure if I see the corn/Hodor parallel, those I can agree there is power in words and their repetition. Letting it sort of sink in, I need to reread your last post with more scrutiny
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 18:47:31 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 18:47:31 GMT
Lots of great stuff here Min. And although I'm all over the tunnel theory (Winterfell connects with BR's cave) I don't think the CotF are needed to Hodor Hodor. I can't see Hodor's (Bran's) motivation to hold the door for Leaf, but I can see Hodor (Bran) holding the door for a family member or Meera. Further we alreayd have much more interesting SK-ers handy, Bran being the most prominent. And as Ser Duncan points out, Ned, Benjen... or even Lyanna!... could have been the original culprit. And not sure if I see the corn/Hodor parallel, those I can agree there is power in words and their repetition. Letting it sort of sink in, I need to reread your last post with more scrutiny I think the black gate type door, if there is one in the Crypts and I think its a high probability is not the type of door we're talking about with Hodor. I think it's the front door of the crypts and someone had to get in there fast. It's a heavy trap door; you lift up or push upwards on when it's closed. It requires a lot of strength to open. While it makes sense to me that the CotF might slip into Winterfell to use the back door of the Crypts leading to the Cave of the Greenseer; I can't see any reason why Ned, Benjen or Lyanna might skin change Hodor in this way. Why would they do it? If they needed his strength to open the door; they could just ask him. They didn't have direwolves; so they could not have had a developed third eye in any way. It seems a possibility to me that when Leaf went out into the world to learn the common tongue; she may have returned to the cave of the Cotf via the crypts of Winterfell and needed Hodor's help to open the door. If she had used a crow; it might be left with the remnant of a previous rider that could only say corn, corn, corn. In Walder's case it's hodor, hodor, hodor. When you skinchange or warg; the soul become mixed; a part of the rider is left behind. If she was in danger and being pursued then a door with iron banding might provide some kind of warding but she has to pass first. It seems to me that an interpreter for BR and later Bran would be a strategic asset to eliminate. Once past the door she's safe, unless Hodor has to hold the door closed for a time as well. There has already been one attempt on Bran's life and when Coldhands says they don't want anyone to come looking; I don't think he's just talking about the Boltons. The Lannisters didn't send the assassin and neither did Baelish. He just lied about it and redirected the weapon at Tyrion for his own purposes. So possibly the citadel. Why, because the enemy can't get at Bloodraven and Bran is his replacement. Leaf might also have some importance to that relationship. I wonder if she returned from the outside world around the time Bloodraven went missing as Lord Commander. I think Benjen was sent to the Wall around the time of Lyanna's disappearance. Just before Robert's Rebellion began in earnest. He was what 16 at the time.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 13, 2016 19:03:13 GMT
Ser Duncan said: Or did Ned also skinchange Hodor at one point in his youth? I was like whoa - nice! That never occurred to me. And with the discussions about slipping into wolf skins while dreaming, I wonder if a SK'er could do the same with a human. After all Ned seems very muggle in his beliefs but would dismiss dream-warging as only a dream. I even wondered if Brandon, the true heir to Winterfell that everything was meant for and the Stark with "more than a touch" of the wolf blood, actually had warging abilities and used Hodor as his test subject way back when. However, Ned being the culprit makes more literary sense. Remember how the show portrayed Young Ned as being kindof a d-bag while jousting with Ben in the yard? Rather cocky and know-it-all? Very much unlike the Ned we see in current time? If a young Ned had skinchanged Hodor at some point and perhaps even messed him up a bit, Adult Ned being such a muggle in present day has that vibe of tragic irony to it. He denies it to everyone, including himself. His reknowned honor would be secretly tainted.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 19:27:03 GMT
Post by Melifeather on Aug 13, 2016 19:27:03 GMT
I like the parallel between "hodor" and "corn" as being a type of corvid language. But Hodor does understand the common tongue. They tell him to do something or go somewhere and he knows what and where to go. But I suppose you can teach dogs as much.
I'm also wondering why a crypt requires such a heavy door? And you push it up to open, and push it down to close? How would you open it without Hodor's strength?
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 19:44:01 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 19:44:01 GMT
I like the parallel between "hodor" and "corn" as being a type of corvid language. But Hodor does understand the common tongue. They tell him to do something or go somewhere and he knows what and where to go. But I suppose you can teach dogs as much. I'm also wondering why a crypt requires such a heavy door? And you push it up to open, and push it down to close? How would you open it without Hodor's strength? Yes, the description of Hodor opening the door for Bran and co. escape has him pushing upward. So like a trapdoor; which wasn't what I expected at all. Then they go down spiral stairs. Sound familiar? I suppose it's heavy because people are not meant to enter unless there's a burial. Or the door remains open at times for maintenance or burials? I wonder if he went down around the time that Richard or Brandon were put into the crypts after Aeron burned them. Hmmm. Maybe he was drawn there by a dream not unlike Bran and Rickon. That might make more sense that Leaf escaping some danger. If the spirits of dead Stark return to the crypts and their bones aren't there; do they seek to enter another. Say Hodor or Shaggy Dog? The buried kings of winter do not love interlopers and their spirits are warded with iron. So a vengeful ghost on the loose? Turning, Hodor plut his back to the wood and shoved. Again. Again. "Hodor!" He put one foot on a higher step so he was bent under the slant of the door and tried to rise.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 19:53:08 GMT
Post by Melifeather on Aug 13, 2016 19:53:08 GMT
Is it just me or does it sound like this door would be easier to open from the inside?
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 19:57:55 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 19:57:55 GMT
Is it just me or does it sound like this door would be easier to open from the inside? Lifting as opposed to pulling. I suppose you could get a draft animal to help open it. From the inside there is only barely enough room for Hodor, the stairwell is so narrow. Makes you wonder where they get the stone for the tombs, statues etc. Unless the place is cave and they take it from inside.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 20:09:08 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 20:09:08 GMT
You could say that Hodor communicates in much the same way as the corvids, with Hodor substituting Hodor for corn. If he was ridden before then a part of the rider remains behind. The part that can't communicate effectively with humans and can only say Hodor must be the part that remains within him. Erm, no. This would imply that Hodor is being skinchanged at all times. We know from Varamyr that the presence of the person in a second life fades after a while. Even in the ravens Bran skinchanges he only feels a presence, and BR confirms it is. Additionally, Bran's experience with those ravens shows he can detect a presence. Bran feels nothing but the tight ball of whimpering Hodor when he skinchanges Hodor. Is there any doubt that Leaf and the remaining CotF have the ability to skinchange? Most of the crows have had riders as BR explains to Bran. Who could that be but the CotF. If men forgot the language of the CotF; then it must follow that the CotF must learn the language of men. Quite a bit as it happens. Bloodraven tells Bran how a skinchanger is recognised among the Children. They are not long lived, and have either red or green eyes. Leaf has yellow eyes. So I highly doubt she's a skinchanger. This occurs just about the time Leaf shows up and I wonder if she shoved him from one body to another already having had experience with Hodor. Erm again, no. Bran is reaching, reaching for the safety of the cave. He can not get there on his own, so instinctively he reaches for Hodor because I think it possible Hodor, in his distress himself, was calling to Bran, or anyone else, for help. Then Shaggy Dogg attacks Luwin visciously. Shaggydog bites first, then asks questions later. He has the same reaction to Tyrion and they have to again ask Rickon to back the wolf off. So I don't think there is much in this, sorry. That is not to say I don't agree with you on there being some sort of agency at work here. I think there is something quite odd going on. When Robb dies, only the wolves are aware of his death, or rather Greywind's disappearance from their circle of communications. Robb, as far as we know, did not visit anyone. So why does Ned? And why did BR spend years watching the man if it was all for naught? Ned must have some sort of connection that we don't know about. Both Brandon and Lyanna were call centaurs, they were that close to their horses. But neither Benjen, nor Ned are mentioned as having ever displayed any affinity to an animal. Yet BR watched Ned's birth, and Ned's father before him. So maybe Rickard had some quality BR was looking for too.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 20:17:45 GMT
I very much like how to paralleled this with "hold the door" it really drives it home. I'm in the camp of thinking D&D showed us exactly why Hodor means - although I don't believe they used the correct door. I was thinking the Black Gate for a while, or one of the gates into Castle Black, but I'm interested in the possibility of it being the crypt door. D&D conflated so much in their flashbacks so they could have all the events - Ned and Benjen sparring (takes the place of Lyanna and Benjen), Hodoring getting Hodored, etc. - take place on the same set at the same time. I think the important thing here is all we really know is the meaning of Hodor. Martin could make up a thousand different ways, with different Stark members using skinchanging. Thing is we have no idea if Walder's transformation had anything to do with skinchanging or time travel. I think it most likely that it was Bran who messed him up, though that doesn't mean it couldn't have been the first time one of the Starks accidentally slipped his skin yelling Hold The Door! After all, we don't even know if Hodor went off with Ned on his campaign or stayed home with Benjen. I was like whoa - nice! That never occurred to me. And with the discussions about slipping into wolf skins while dreaming, I wonder if a SK'er could do the same with a human. After all Ned seems very muggle in his beliefs but would dismiss dream-warging as only a dream. And this smacks of denial. Ned says the same thing about what Gared tells him -- the man was out of his mind, Ned reports. The Others are just stories. Right, Ned.
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