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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 20:23:35 GMT
And this smacks of denial. Ned says the same thing about what Gared tells him -- the man was out of his mind, Ned reports. The Others are just stories. Right, Ned. crib tales ... my memory of the tilted door was when they exit, not when they enter, because there was a partial collapse due to burning/destruction. I really need to reread that chapter because wow that's crazy.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 20:25:07 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 20:25:07 GMT
Shaggydog bites first, then asks questions later. He has the same reaction to Tyrion and they have to again ask Rickon to back the wolf off. So I don't think there is much in this, sorry. That is not to say I don't agree with you on there being some sort of agency at work here. I think there is something quite odd going on. When Robb dies, only the wolves are aware of his death, or rather Greywind's disappearance from their circle of communications. Robb, as far as we know, did not visit anyone. So why does Ned? And why did BR spend years watching the man if it was all for naught? Ned must have some sort of connection that we don't know about. Both Brandon and Lyanna were call centaurs, they were that close to their horses. But neither Benjen, nor Ned are mentioned as having ever displayed any affinity to an animal. Yet BR watched Ned's birth, and Ned's father before him. So maybe Rickard had some quality BR was looking for too. I have to agree with all these arguments. There is still something going on. Something that Hodor fears in the crypts. He won't go in, neither will Summer until he is called and it could be that Shaggy Dog is reacting in an aggressive/protective manner; responding to the same thing but lashes out at Luwin because this reflects Rickon's primal fear. This has something to do with Ned's ghost or the dream of Ned returning to the crypts. I said upthread that I wonder if the spirits of all Starks must return to the crypts. They rest in the Bones and are warded with iron until the bones turn to dust. The spirits of the dead are vengeful, not unlike Lady Stoneheart and there is the feeling that the winter kings do not love anyone. The reason why BR warns Bran about bringing back the dead. So I wonder if the fact that Ned's bones are not in the crypt have something to do with the presence in the crypts. Did the direwolf collect Ned's soul until it was expelled by Summer? Likewise did Hodor have a dream of Brandon or Rickard's ghosts returning to the crypts when they were burned by Aerys. Is this what he experienced before. Perhaps the crypts are a dangerous place if the bones aren't present when the soul comes knocking. Or, since we're talking about potential skinchanging abilities: Did Ned dream of his father and brother in the crypts and take Hodor with him to open the door and investigate? Ned certainly has a lot recurring dream about ghosts. LOL They must have died before Lyanna since she wants to be buried with them. So around 282 AC.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 20:48:16 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 20:48:16 GMT
] ... my memory of the tilted door was when they exit, not when they enter, because there was a partial collapse due to burning/destruction. I really need to reread that chapter because wow that's crazy. Yes, in spite of the fact the Benjen has been North of the Wall and knows more about it than is openly revealed to Ned. Benjen must have given him reports of some kind. Maester Luwin is another who downplays the old tales as well. But then he goes to the heart tree when he's dying.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 21:06:23 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 21:06:23 GMT
I can't see any reason why Ned, Benjen or Lyanna might skin change Hodor in this way. Why would they do it? For the same reason that Bran does -- in desperation. Both times Bran slips into Hodor without consciously meaning to he is reaching for help. Now I don't see Benjen having that kind of desperation, I do see both Brandon and Rickard. Remember Brandon was desperately reaching for his blade while his father burned. Richar equally would have been reaching for a way out. Lyanna also had a good reason to reach for help. If she died in childbirth or a sword wound, an excape from her present predicament would've caused her to reach for help. Ned in battle, same. Plus if Walder was present, then Ned reaching said door is exactly mirrored in Bran reaching the cave. I think Benjen was sent to the Wall around the time of Lyanna's disappearance. Just before Robert's Rebellion began in earnest. He was what 16 at the time. This is my prevailing theory. There has to be a reason, the sole remaining son of Richard Stark, to go to the Wall when that is only reserved for the spare's spare. Don't think I'm knocking your theory, please, I am not. I'm trying to add factual (and some of my wild speculations as examples) to the idea that Hodor is being controlled by a third entity. In fact I am fully onboard with there being more than one faction. Crows v Weirwods. Adult Ned being such a muggle in present day has that vibe of tragic irony to it. He denies it to everyone, including himself. His reknowned honor would be secretly tainted. Sorry had not read this. But while it's not sandwiches, its maybe slider?
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 21:11:59 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 21:11:59 GMT
I like the parallel between "hodor" and "corn" as being a type of corvid language. But Hodor does understand the common tongue. They tell him to do something or go somewhere and he knows what and where to go. But I suppose you can teach dogs as much. The crow understands conversations. And I would say he's playing the fool, much like Bran does when in Hodor. He never lets on the fact he's in there. And you push it up to open, and push it down to close? How would you open it without Hodor's strength? IIRC the door was off it's hinges when Hodor pushes against it. But I'd have to reread all the crypt passages to confirm this. Just me 2p
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 21:19:03 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 21:19:03 GMT
IIRC the door was off it's hinges when Hodor pushes against it. But I'd have to reread all the crypt passages to confirm this. Just me 2p this is my memory too - it's been damaged
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 21:23:11 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 13, 2016 21:23:11 GMT
... my memory of the tilted door was when they exit, not when they enter, because there was a partial collapse due to burning/destruction. I really need to reread that chapter because wow that's crazy. Sliders? So I wonder if the fact that Ned's bones are not in the crypt have something to do with the presence in the crypts. Me too. The idea of the spirit being trapped there with the bones is one I think quite plausible.
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 22:58:48 GMT
Post by min on Aug 13, 2016 22:58:48 GMT
Don't think I'm knocking your theory, please, I am not. Oh I don't mind. It just something I was wondering about.
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Post by jnr on Aug 13, 2016 23:37:06 GMT
I can't see Hodor's (Bran's) motivation to hold the door for Leaf Because he's a gentleman!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 23:40:10 GMT
Because he's a gentleman! well he does wear a... hodora
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Hodor
Aug 13, 2016 23:40:27 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 13, 2016 23:40:27 GMT
I'll see myself out
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 13, 2016 23:45:36 GMT
I had a quick read of the book to make sure I had this right. The reason Hodor had so much diffuculty opening the crypt door is because it was weighed down by stone. The Winterfell structures had been destroyed and I assume some structure had collapsed atop the entry door (which is made of ironwood.) OR, someone had purposely stacked stones atop the door. Funnily enough, when leaving the crypts, Bran's instructions to Hodor are, "open the door, Hodor." As to Leaf and her part... She has been hoofin' over the realm of men almost her entire life. It doesn't take 200 years to learn another language. She must have been searching for someone or something or waiting for an appearance. Yet her heart grew weary, so she went home. I'd say she didn't find what she was looking for. I still don't understand how she could involve herself with humans for so long, and learn the language while not being exposed as a Singer, but I'd say she saw almost everything one could see after two centuries. And I'd not doubt that she visited Winterfell during her travels. If Hodor is close enough to an age with Ned, could he have went to war with the rest of the smallfolk? Could it be some PTSD from a battle or skirkish? Probably not. Could he have made the trip with the Lord Starks journey south for the wedding of Brandon? He is a stable boy after all, so he could have been required to take care of the horses. I do like the idea that Hodor was always in Winterfell and his condition began there. At a time that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell? And one more before I go, what if Hodor's vocabularies began in pregnancy? A mind meld of his mother. Can't help but think of the pregnant woman emerging from the water wishing vengeance from her yet, unborn child.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 0:04:06 GMT
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 0:04:06 GMT
I think Benjen was sent to the Wall around the time of Lyanna's disappearance. Just before Robert's Rebellion began in earnest. He was what 16 at the time. George doesn't agree... SSM from Conestoga, July 2005: 6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately? It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW. (Also, I didn't mean to imply that Benjen "had to " join the NW. We don't know because GRRM wouldn't elaborate on the reasons for Benjen joining the NW.)
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 0:15:40 GMT
min likes this
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 0:15:40 GMT
I do like the idea that Hodor was always in Winterfell Begs the question... who/where are his parents? Is it his mother or father who is the grandchild of old Nan? At what point did the Giant kick in? Through Old Nan or through a generation after Old Nan? How does that even happen? Could He have Stark Blood? Does he have Frey blood (why Walder, GRRM?)? And, why is Hodor so terrified of thunderstorms? Thinking out loud... Is Hodor the last Reyne? Because if BR's Cave and the Winterfell Crypts are connected, and we pretty much know they are because of the story of Gendel and Gorne, why wouldn't they connect further South? Even as far south as Castamere? So the Giants could have had as much access to any Winterfell Crypt entrance than the children. Maybe Hodor's Giant connection is a key somehow, I dunno. I dug this up... with Mag and Wun Wun dead, is Hodor the last? Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth. The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth. Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills. And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills. In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears. Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears. They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night. For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light. Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song. For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 0:20:30 GMT
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 0:20:30 GMT
I had a quick read of the book to make sure I had this right. The reason Hodor had so much diffuculty opening the crypt door is because it was weighed down by stone. The Winterfell structures had been destroyed and I assume some structure had collapsed atop the entry door (which is made of ironwood.) OR, someone had purposely stacked stones atop the door. Funnily enough, when leaving the crypts, Bran's instructions to Hodor are, "open the door, Hodor." As to Leaf and her part... She has been hoofin' over the realm of men almost her entire life. It doesn't take 200 years to learn another language. She must have been searching for someone or something or waiting for an appearance. Yet her heart grew weary, so she went home. I'd say she didn't find what she was looking for. I still don't understand how she could involve herself with humans for so long, and learn the language while not being exposed as a Singer, but I'd say she saw almost everything one could see after two centuries. And I'd not doubt that she visited Winterfell during her travels. If Hodor is close enough to an age with Ned, could he have went to war with the rest of the smallfolk? Could it be some PTSD from a battle or skirkish? Probably not. Could he have made the trip with the Lord Starks journey south for the wedding of Brandon? He is a stable boy after all, so he could have been required to take care of the horses. I do like the idea that Hodor was always in Winterfell and his condition began there. At a time that Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell? And one more before I go, what if Hodor's vocabularies began in pregnancy? A mind meld of his mother. Can't help but think of the pregnant woman emerging from the water wishing vengeance from her yet, unborn child. At this point; I'm inclined to think that it might have something to do with Ned's dreams of a "frozen hell reserved for Starks". Altough we are never told what the dream is exactly. Just started reading some of Ned's POV and he is a bit superstitious about ghosts. When he takes Robert down to the crypt; he notices that some of the iron swords and crumbled to dust and wonders if their ghosts are free to roam around the castle. "He hopes not." He is uncomfortable looking at his own place in the crypt. He describes the kings in their tombs with their iron swords keeping vengeful ghosts in their graves. He seems to have some anxiety around it. I don't think he dismisses vengeful ghosts entirely. He still dreams about the frozen hell and wonders if the ghosts are still in their graves. The same thing Ygritte worries about when they open graves looking for the horn of joramun. So I wonder if he had a dream of his brother and/or father in the crypts upon their death and went to investigate with Hodor and they had an encounter of some kind leaving Hodor in his current state. Because they didn't start calling Walder, Hodor until he could only speak the one word. If he was ever showing skin changing capability and asked the maester about it; he probably got the party line that magic didn't exist anymore. So an emergency warging between Ned and Hodor might not be out of the question. What Ned thinks of his current condition or if he feels any blame for it; hard to say or if he has a clear memory of it. However he is very pious when it comes to the old gods. If Hodor remembers a previous experience in the crypts with vengeful ghosts when Bran and Rickon dream of Ned.
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