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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:03:38 GMT
Post by min on Aug 14, 2016 15:03:38 GMT
Martin: (laughing) You don’t know how close to the truth you are! LOL! Great story. Back to the drawing board.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:05:05 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 15:05:05 GMT
Can't take too much from the timeline there No, but we can take why Hodor was left at WF. Most of the time children that are orphaned with remain with the lord their parents served. So it's a good guess Hodor is the son of the grandson that died during the Greyjoy Rebellion. None of Old Nan's other children or grandchild are present at WF so it's safe to say they stayed at their parents place of residence. Nice detective work Flagons. And I wonder who that grandson married? Chances are he was old enough to go and fight the first time, so who knows what sort of wife he'd have picked up during Robert's Rebellion. Maybe a Frey, like what Roose did.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:12:11 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 15:12:11 GMT
This is the story I am familiar with. Baldr being charming, handsome and invulnerable cause's Loki's jealousy, so he dupes the blind, innocent Hodr into shooting a mistletoe arrow and killing Baldr. I think I see parts of your theory here Min, if we substitute Hodr with the daft assassin sent to kill Bran.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:12:46 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 15:12:46 GMT
LOL! Great story. Back to the drawing board. Sorry!
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:15:01 GMT
Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 14, 2016 15:15:01 GMT
I'll have to go lay out Balder's bio in the Marvel forum and have you guys take a look. Please do because I have my suspicions on who Balr is within this story. Actually, several. I, for one would appreciate a chance to explore each character I think is Baldr.
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 15:37:00 GMT
min likes this
Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 15:37:00 GMT
I like the idea of Old Nan as a wildling in a situation similar to Osha's, SPND. That can tie into the Bael story too, with Wildling blood mixed into the Stark bloodline. Yeah, Old Nan is in possession of all this wildling/northern lore, so it makes sense to me that she was originally a wildling herself. Harmond Umber, aka The Drunken Giant, teamed up with Willam Stark to defeat Raymun Redbeard in 226. Artos Stark slew Raymun after his brother was killed in battle. If my guesstimations about Old Nan's age are correct, she would have been in her late teens/early 20s at the time. At some point, Willam had married Lyanne Glover and had a son, Brandon - the Wiki states that his mother died in childbirth and this is when Nan was brought to Winterfell - it fits the timeline and would have been the son of Rickard's grandfather. Now, it is not specified who Willam married first, Lyanne or Melantha Blackwood, but timewise it seems that Melantha was the first wife and Edwyle (Rickard's father) would have been older when his half-brother was born. If Lyanne Glover was indeed the second wife, she may have died somewhere around the time of the war with Raymun and the death of Willam...and if Artos, the new Lord of Winterfell, needed a wet nurse for his nephew and just happened to have a captive wildling woman around to fill the bill... Anyway, just spitballing. I think it's possible that Nan would have had contact with an Umber during her youth, possibly Hoarfrost (grandfather of Greatjon) or even Harmond himself, and bore a child by him that eventually led to Hodor. If this Umber child was a "war baby" or even conceived across the Wall during a raid, then it makes sense that it wouldn't be recognized/taken in as an Umber. FWIW, I will also not rule out the possibility that Old Nan is actually the wife or daughter of Raymun Redbeard himself. We know almost nothing about him, beyond that he was King-Beyond-the-Wall and was killed in a battle with Lords Stark and Umber - perhaps he was a very large man? That would make her a royal captive, and Starks don't seem to be in the business of killing children so may have spared her and her remaining family. Or, she could just be some random person from a northern clan in search of a better life at Winterfell. Iono. There are a million possibilities on how Hodor came to be.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 15:58:45 GMT
Speaking of giants, just saw this online....LOL.
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Post by jnr on Aug 14, 2016 16:40:16 GMT
For my Marvel stuff I am still trying to figure out who Baldr's counterpart is. Bald(e)r plays heavily into some arcs that I associate with Robert's Rebellion and later during Ragnarok (which is forthcoming in ASOIAF), and I consider him to be a "Rosetta Stone" character....if I can crack his identity, everything else will fall into place, including Hod(o)r. In Marvel? He has many qualities that remind me not of canonical Jon, but Jon as RLJ imagines him: 1. The hidden son of the king (Odin), revealed belatedly as such and made king himself 2. The "shining one" who through use of supernatural powers, improbably defeats frost giants 3. Invulnerable to almost all harm while in Asgard -- much like RLJ Jon's Valyrian Steel Plot Armor 4. Incredibly skilled, fast warrior whom Thor himself cannot defeat without resorting to lightning 5. Went to Hel and came back with whitened hair -- compare to RLJ Jon, who according to Apple Martini will spent early TWOW in a "coma" where he will experience a "catabasis" as he is informed in a dream of his true origins by Bloodraven, coming out of the coma with Targaryen hair 6. Has sword of Frey, against which nothing can stand -- RLJ Jon is surely both the PtwP and AAR, and hence will bear Lightbringer, which in RLJ is dragonsteel, against which the Others could not stand
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 17:16:44 GMT
Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 17:16:44 GMT
Harmond Umber, aka The Drunken Giant, teamed up with Willam Stark to defeat Raymun Redbeard in 226. Artos Stark slew Raymun after his brother was killed in battle. If my guesstimations about Old Nan's age are correct, she would have been in her late teens/early 20s at the time. At some point, Willam had married Lyanne Glover and had a son, Brandon - the Wiki states that his mother died in childbirth and this is when Nan was brought to Winterfell - it fits the timeline and would have been the son of Rickard's grandfather. Now, it is not specified who Willam married first, Lyanne or Melantha Blackwood, but timewise it seems that Melantha was the first wife and Edwyle (Rickard's father) would have been older when his half-brother was born. If Lyanne Glover was indeed the second wife, she may have died somewhere around the time of the war with Raymun and the death of Willam...and if Artos, the new Lord of Winterfell, needed a wet nurse for his nephew and just happened to have a captive wildling woman around to fill the bil Nice. A life as a servant of a northern clan or house would be a much easier life than one above the Wall. Despite all the kneeling the wildlings go on about, of which Nan doesn't seem to participate in. "Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had." Yes, there are so many possibilities for Old Nan and Hodor's origins. I think there are a lot of ideas that hit close to the mark. In the end if we are all wrong, well, in the words of Kurt Cobain, "It's fun to lose and to pretend."
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 17:18:18 GMT
Now, it is not specified who Willam married first, Lyanne or Melantha Blackwood, but timewise it seems that Melantha was the first wife and Edwyle (Rickard's father) would have been older when his half-brother was born. Not sure if you caught where I surmised that Melantha and Melissa (BR's mom) were sisters.
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Post by Maester Flagons on Aug 14, 2016 17:23:12 GMT
What if it means something else? Like H'odor with the emphasis on on the Odor or Othor or Other? Does something smell fishy? The smell of the cold and the dead for which the direwolves are particularly sensitive. Maybe Walder did come back from the war with a crack on his head and a keener sense of smell. Maybe GRRM didn't tell D&D anything other than what was already out there. As you noted some fans figured out that Hodor was a shortening of Hold the Door. I don't think it has a thing to do with odor, but it would be hilarious if it did. Here's an old blog post by a writer that attended a Con with Martin about 3 years ago. Ventrella gets a bit more info, but not a solid confirmation his guess is correct. I think we can now credit it him with getting it right. Martin: (laughing) You don’t know how close to the truth you are! LOL! Great story. Back to the drawing board. There was at least one more who came up with the idea of Hold the Door Hodor years before that guy in the article you linked to. On Westeros, if I recall correctly. But, there is more to the backstory than what D&D gave us. Or at least a different story.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 18:06:46 GMT
Not sure if you caught where I surmised that Melantha and Melissa (BR's mom) were sisters. And given what we know of Missy's age and when she was mistress to Aegon IV, if Melantha was a sister, she would be more in the age range to indeed be Willam's first wife. By probably a large margin, fwiw. It's possible that they were sisters, but since Missy was with Aegon from 172-177 and Willam was in adult operation during the early 200s, I think it's more likely that Melantha is the generation after Melissa. (Side note for another thread: interesting how all the male Starks who have ever taken a Blackwood wife go on to have at least one other wife as well. Actually, now that I'm looking at the family tree, the Starks that married Blackwoods are the ONLY Starks to have more than one marriage, ever.)
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Hodor
Aug 14, 2016 18:35:45 GMT
Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 18:35:45 GMT
It's possible that they were sisters, but since Missy was with Aegon from 172-177 and Willam was in adult operation during the early 200s, I think it's more likely that Melantha is the generation after Melissa. Could they have been the same person? If they were, say, using a spell or glamour to appear younger? Like, say... Melisandre, whose power grows near the wall? /rice crispies
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