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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 20:06:41 GMT
So, what's the deal with Littlefinger?
I've hurriedly started this thread to jumpstart a discussion.
One of my fondest notions is that Petyr is the last Reyne - the offspring of a previously unknown survivor of the Reyne Genocide - child of Lord Baelish, upjumped sellsword and husband to Alayne, whose name is given to Sansa in order to hide her identity. It's very possible GRRM wants us to know that Petyr is associating the name Alayne with a hidden identity.
I admit the main reason I love this idea is that it perfectly explains Petyr's motivations to destroy House Lannister. More on all that later.
The most frustrating thing about dissecting Petyr against GRRM's background of the novels is the choice of name. Bael-ish.
Bael being the King beyond the Wall who posed as a Bard, tricked Lord Stark out of his Maiden Daughter (leaving a Winterfell Blue Rose in her place), then hid with her in the Winterfell crypts until she bore a son, who, although a bastard, became the Lord of Winterfell and eventually - unbeknownst to himself - killed his own father, which caused his mother to throw herself off a tower in grief.
How can we associate Littlefinger with this story?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 14, 2016 22:15:13 GMT
No Bael-ish thread would be complete without Bran's vision of the faceless man, Petyr Littlefinger Baelish:
Littlefinger got Lysa to poison Jon Arrryn, which led to Robert naming Ned Hand. Littlefinger's blade was sent to kill Bran, cut Catelyn's hands, and his words convinced Catelyn that the culprit was Tyrion. Catelyn took Tyrion prisoner based on Littlefinger's accusations, which led to: 1) Tywin sending Ser Gregor out raiding. 2) Ned snooping around trying to find out why Jon Arryn was dead 3) Ned's snooping caused Cersei to become paranoid 4) Joffrey begins killing Robert's bastards 5) Jaime attacked Ned and his men. 6) Cersei fortifies Robert's wine leading to death by boar 7) Ned confronts Cersei 8) Ned takes Robert's paper making him protector of the realm into the throne room 9) Littlefinger betrays Ned by buying the City Watch to arrest him 10) Joffrey beheads Ned - was this all his own idea? Janos Slynt moved quickly enough as if prearranged.
Most of the events that lead to the fall of House Stark can be linked to Littlefinger in one way or another, and that is why I believe he's the looming giant made of stone with a helmet full of black blood.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 22:22:10 GMT
Ok, first thing about Petyr Reyne...the timeline. Littlefinger was born circa 268, I believe, and Tywin crushed the Reynes in 261. Even though small for his age, I don't think a 7 year age difference could be easily fudged, especially as a child fostered with the Tullys.
HOWEVER. Although it is said that all of Ellyn Reyne's children were killed in the uprising and it is assumed that her brothers Roger and Reynard also died when Tywin flooded the mines, but it is never said if her brothers married or had children - children that may have escaped. So there's a possibility. Ellyn's daughters - Tarbecks - didn't die but were forced to join the Silent Sisters.
The part of this that gets me is that Rohanne and her unnamed husband had a 3yo son that somehow escaped during the assault - this "Last Lord Tarbeck" was born ~258 and would be in his early 40s currently if he survived. Not Baelish, obv, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has already resurfaced in the story as someone we know.
Back to Baelish, though....I have to dig a bit more into the timeline but I think the first part of the key is in the War of the Ninepenny Kings in 260, where Hoster met Petyr's father. I'm also very interested how a hedge knight son of a sellsword from Braavos serving House Corbray would have been granted land and title in the Fingers...an endowment that would had to have been bestowed by House Arryn. Will come back to this, because this may be where things tie in with the Bael tale. Need to mull.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 22:47:24 GMT
No Bael-ish thread would be complete without Bran's vision of the faceless man, Petyr Littlefinger Baelish: Littlefinger got Lysa to poison Jon Arrryn, which led to Robert naming Ned Hand. Littlefinger's blade was sent to kill Bran, cut Catelyn's hands, and his words convinced Catelyn that the culprit was Tyrion. Catelyn took Tyrion prisoner based on Littlefinger's accusations, which led to: 1) Tywin sending Ser Gregor out raiding. 2) Ned snooping around trying to find out why Jon Arryn was dead 3) Ned's snooping caused Cersei to become paranoid 4) Joffrey begins killing Robert's bastards 5) Jaime attacked Ned and his men. 6) Cersei fortifies Robert's wine leading to death by boar 7) Ned confronts Cersei 8) Ned takes Robert's paper making him protector of the realm into the throne room 9) Littlefinger betrays Ned by buying the City Watch to arrest him 10) Joffrey beheads Ned - was this all his own idea? Janos Slynt moved quickly enough as if prearranged. Most of the events that lead to the fall of House Stark can be linked to Littlefinger in one way or another, and that is why I believe he's the looming giant made of stone with a helmet full of black blood. Great list! He also had Lysa send Cat the letter (that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn) hidden in the box holding the Myrish lens for Luwin. That letter convinced Cat that Ned had to go South.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 14, 2016 22:48:59 GMT
Ok, first thing about Petyr Reyne...the timeline. Littlefinger was born circa 268, I believe, and Tywin crushed the Reynes in 261. Even though small for his age, I don't think a 7 year age difference could be easily fudged, especially as a child fostered with the Tullys. HOWEVER. Although it is said that all of Ellyn Reyne's children were killed in the uprising and it is assumed that her brothers Roger and Reynard also died when Tywin flooded the mines, but it is never said if her brothers married or had children - children that may have escaped. So there's a possibility. Ellyn's daughters - Tarbecks - didn't die but were forced to join the Silent Sisters. The part of this that gets me is that Rohanne and her unnamed husband had a 3yo son that somehow escaped during the assault - this "Last Lord Tarbeck" was born ~258 and would be in his early 40s currently if he survived. Not Baelish, obv, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has already resurfaced in the story as someone we know. Back to Baelish, though....I have to dig a bit more into the timeline but I think the first part of the key is in the War of the Ninepenny Kings in 260, where Hoster met Petyr's father. I'm also very interested how a hedge knight son of a sellsword from Braavos serving House Corbray would have been granted land and title in the Fingers...an endowment that would had to have been bestowed by House Arryn. Will come back to this, because this may be where things tie in with the Bael tale. Need to mull. I don't think Petyr is 7 years older than we think he is, but it's possible someone escaped the fate of the rest of the Reynes, and Petyr was conceived 6 years later. Ish. Also mulling lol. And I'm not married to Petyr being a Reyne
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 14, 2016 23:05:56 GMT
I don't think Petyr is 7 years older than we think he is, but it's possible someone escaped the fate of the rest of the Reynes, and Petyr was conceived 6 years later. Ish. Yup...and if I had my guess, it would be someone connected to one of the Reyne brothers....like a wife or a daughter named Alayne...? Oh, and guess who was a commander in the WotNPK, and probably would have overseen some of the younger fighters like Hoster & Bryndyn Tully, etc? Roger Reyne.
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 12:39:23 GMT
Sorry, I don't know much about the Marvel Universe but I do want to say something about the lens and the letter that Maester Luwin recieves. We know that the letter comes from Lyssa and that Petyr is behind it. The lens is curious because why would Petyr send him a lens to use in his telescope? Of course the letter is concealed by the lens but I also think this smacks of a connection to the Citadel.
That brings me back to Tyrion and the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers. As I've mentioned before; I think this is Marwyn and that he ended up at the Fingers to care for Petyr after his duel with Brandon. Marwyn has many characteristics of dwarfism as described by Sam and he has one thing in common with Tyrion. They both have white or pale blond hair. Or in Marwyn's case white hair coming out of his nose and ears. We don't know his age but a salty old sea dog might appear more weathered.
Another odd thing is that Tyrion's aunt confirms Tywin as Tyrion' natural father. She laughs when the question comes up and says there's no doubt of it. So I wonder if Tywin has a history of producing dwarf offspring and Marwyn is another besides Tyrion. Another product of a liason in a brothel. This would make Marwyn a potential little brother to Cersei; her actual Valonqar. Put some names together Mar-wyn. Tyr-ion, Pe-tyr.
So if Marwyn is actively working against the Lannisters on the side of Dorne; then another bastard half-brother working for the same purpose would make an ally or an effective insider. Isn't it Tywin who thinks all dwarfs are bastards according to Tyrion?
Marwyn also has a connection to Qyburn whom I very much doubt is the kindly old man type. Qyburn also procures a high class whore for Jaimie after he 'operates' on his hand. Another potential connection to Petyr. After Tywin's death, Cersei tells him that something must be done about Sansa; to which he replies that it's being taken care of. In other words, Petyr now has his hands on Sansa.
While Petyr has control of Sansa; he suggests that he has a lot of information about the Cersei and that she isn't going to last long. He seems to have insider information. Possibly about Euron.
Anyway, sorry back to the Marvel Universe.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 15, 2016 18:33:35 GMT
Sorry, I don't know much about the Marvel Universe but I do want to say something about the lens and the letter that Maester Luwin recieves. We know that the letter comes from Lyssa and that Petyr is behind it. The lens is curious because why would Petyr send him a lens to use in his telescope? Of course the letter is concealed by the lens but I also think this smacks of a connection to the Citadel. I too suspect a Citadel conspiracy somewhere in this story, and I think they are holding some big secret that impacts the story in some way. I think they view certain people as embodying the seven aspects of the Faith to carry out their "secret war" on the Iron Throne. IMO Tywin Lannister was their original chosen "warrior", Robert Baratheon their "smith", and Sandor is now their "stranger". I haven't identified the rest, but these people would be fully informed of their roles and it's more than just symbolic. They have specific "jobs" that they were or are to complete for the Faith. Marwyn also has a connection to Qyburn whom I very much doubt is the kindly old man type. Qyburn also procures a high class whore for Jaimie after he 'operates' on his hand. Another potential connection to Petyr. After Tywin's death, Cersei tells him that something must be done about Sansa; to which he replies that it's being taken care of. In other words, Petyr now has his hands on Sansa. This is very interesting. Is this a fact? Would you be able to share the passages?
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Post by min on Aug 15, 2016 19:15:22 GMT
I can but i will put it in the Marwyn Thread. I don't have anything specific to say about Marwyn the Marvelous and I don't know much about the Marvel Inverse. So I think this is not the right place to post it.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 15, 2016 21:43:03 GMT
The most frustrating thing about dissecting Petyr against GRRM's background of the novels is the choice of name. Bael-ish. I've not yet read the thread for this but I wanted to do my usual overview of things, lol. Now let's not try to fit Bael-ish into the usual categories but look at from the broader view. What does the original Bael achieve? - Bael gets his heir/blood on the throne of the Kings of Winter. True they were not called that at the time, but seeing as how Robert describes the North being just as big as the whole of the seven kingdoms, let's say it's a big fecking deal and all the other bollocks that goes with being a Northman in general, storywise. - Bottom line, Bael disrupts the entire northern realm with his antics. - Petyr, so far has not produced an heir to the Kings of Winter. However he has the 'last' remaining trueborn, maiden Stark in his power. At any time he can produce heirs though her. - Petyr disrupts ALL of the reigning power. From KL to WF and HH. I think whatever he's doing, he's turning it up a notch. - Petyr and Bael have the future of House Stark in their hands. One played his hand, and paid for it with his head on a spike. The other will probably, learning from the formers example, play it safer. Bonus! A line that would otherwise be dead, gets to live on, in both cases, if Petyr manages to have a viable heir, that is.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 16, 2016 14:38:41 GMT
Bonus! A line that would otherwise be dead, gets to live on, in both cases, if Petyr manages to have a viable heir, that is. Meant to come back to this, because I love it...spot on IMO! Now, to bring in finer details of the Bael story, Bael the Bard stole the Stark maiden as revenge against her father who "mocked" Bael as being a coward. Then, he is able to taint/contaminate/pollute the superior bloodline with his own lesser one - a genetic "screw you" to the Starks. This also creates something of a moral conflict for the Stark lord - on the one hand, he owes Bael for continuing a dying bloodline. On the other, Bael stole along with the daughter the opportunity to continue that bloodline with a better candidate, because who will have her now? Plus, what did this "dilution" of the Stark bloodline actually DO? Finally, I have to wonder - did Bael even know that he fathered a child on the Stark daughter? Did he impregnate her deliberately? Was he purposely trying for an heir, and if so, to which bloodline? Bael's refusal to kill his son in battle makes me think he DID know, and he spared his life not out of any kind of love or paternal obligation but because he wanted the line to continue. And that brings me to Petyr Baelish. I think what's being overlooked in the Bael story is that TWO bloodlines were carried on by this act. A Stark, and another. (I don't think the fact that it's a wildling bloodline in the tale is relevant to current day.) So, first question: if Petyr has his "Stark maiden", what is HIS OWN bloodline that he's trying to pass on? I don't believe it's House Baelish. Second question: is it important in some way that this unknown line be mixed with STARK blood?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 16, 2016 14:54:59 GMT
Finally, I have to wonder - did Bael even know that he fathered a child on the Stark daughter? Did he impregnate her deliberately? Was he purposely trying for an heir, and if so, to which bloodline? Bael's refusal to kill his son in battle makes me think he DID know, and he spared his life not out of any kind of love or paternal obligation but because he wanted the line to continue. And that brings me to Petyr Baelish. I think what's being overlooked in the Bael story is that TWO bloodlines were carried on by this act. A Stark, and another. (I don't think the fact that it's a wildling bloodline in the tale is relevant to current day.) So, first question: if Petyr has his "Stark maiden", what is HIS OWN bloodline that he's trying to pass on? I don't believe it's House Baelish. Second question: is it important in some way that this unknown line be mixed with STARK blood? On point. Because Bael didn't go to Winterfell disguised as a singer... to sing. There already had to be an ulterior motive in place before he arrived. He wasn't there to assassinate Lord Stark (I don't believe). Was his intent all along to seduce/impregnate the Stark Maiden? Hrm. Are you saying that he possibly had forethought that his offspring would ultimately be the Stark heir? How important is the "Stark in Winterfell" to the KBTW? A million ideas, letting them swim a bit.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 16, 2016 14:59:08 GMT
Didn't the Stark Lord insult Bael first and that's what precipitated the plucking?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 16, 2016 15:19:14 GMT
Continuing that line of thought:
Littlefinger's end goal as a youth wasn't a Stark maiden - he wanted Catelyn Tully. Who more or less "mocked" him for not being good enough for his daughter? Hoster Tully. I don't get the impression that Brandon Stark was bullying Petyr or anything like that; Brandon was just in the way.
The real parallel to the Bael tale would be Petyr "stealing" Lysa's virginity and getting her with child, thereby giving his own little finger to Hoster. Hoster, however, screwed things up by giving Lysa moon tea and taking care of that problem.
In addition to losing a potential heir, Littlefinger got no personal satisfaction from soiling Lysa, because Hoster was able to arrange a plum marriage for her anyway. Not what Lysa wanted, because she loved her Bael-ish the way the Stark maiden supposedly loved Bael, but it was a boon to the Tully family politically. Hell, Hoster was making out like a bandit in his marriage alliances -Edmure already set to inherit Riverrun, but Cat going to Winterfell and Lysa going to the Vale meant that he could tie up Wardenships to the North and East via his daughters. If he had secured the marriage of Edmure to Cersei that he wanted, he would have an in to the West as well.
Now, look at current story and the areas over which Littlefinger has gained control. He is now Lord Paramount of the Trident (Riverlands), Lord of Harrenhal (Riverlands), Lord Protector of the Eyrie and the Vale of Arryn (Vale). Now via Sansa he is making his move on Winterfell. All of these are areas that Hoster Tully either held or managed to infiltrate via his daughters. Remember also - Sansa is half Tully! And, in the Bael tale, the dishonoring of the Stark maiden wasn't about love or forbidden romance or anything personal like that - the Stark girl was a pawn in the game that Bael could use to take his revenge.
Is Petyr's angle really about revenge against the Tullys? Is taking back everything that Hoster denied him Littlefinger's real long game? And, if we bring in the "second bloodline" idea, what else is he trying to avenge? There has to be another side to the coin; his plan is too large.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 16, 2016 15:38:26 GMT
Is Petyr's angle really about revenge against the Tullys? Is taking back everything that Hoster denied him Littlefinger's real long game? And, if we bring in the "second bloodline" idea, what else is he trying to avenge? There has to be another side to the coin; his plan is too large. So... Jon Arryn's murder, claiming Tyrion was behind attacking Bran, Joff's murder. These were only ways of setting up the Starks, and had nothing to do with animosity towards the Lannisters? Not that you said that, only thinking out loud.
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