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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 16:29:56 GMT
This would support my idea that Wylla is Lyanna...not Wylla Manderly, but Jon's mother Wylla. =) I think your intuition is spot on! I'm starting to think of the inversion theory as the mirror inversion theory. I think it's possible that Cersei desired Ned at one time and still does.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 17:50:09 GMT
Friendly reminder guys, this thread is about Petyr and although you know I love thinking outside the box, maybe some of these lateral thoughts deserve their own threads? Which you know you're welcome to make at any time! Seriously some good ideas banging around in here.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 18:25:04 GMT
I think it's highly likely that Petyr was one of Vary's little birds spying for him at House Tully and the was passing on information about the STAB conspiracy to Varys. Varys was working at least to get the Mad King off the throne probably in conjunction with Tywin who would use it as an opportunity to climb. I think it's likely that Petyr may have been caught talking in a drunken sleep about stuff he shouldn't know when carried back to his bed one night. Along with his insufferable attitude; enough to get his belly slit and send him home. At Ned's first Small Council meeting: "He eyed Ned with a smile on his lips that bordered on insolence. "I have hoped to meet you for some years, Lord Stark. No doubt Lady Catelyn has mentioned me to you." (payback time...) "She has," Ned replied with a chill in his voice. The sly arrogance of the comment rankled him.
Ranley Baratheon laughed. Varys shuffled over to listen.
"Rather too well," Littlefinger said. "I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too?
"Often, and with some heat." Ned said, hoping that would end it. He had no patience for the game they played, this dueling with words. Petyr's sly insolence and goading is probably the same tack he took with Brandon until he couldn't tolerate him any long. Not so much that Brandon's temperament was prickly; but that Petyr knows how to needle a prickly beast. His sly insolence probably comes from the information he has that his opponent doesn't; that give him power over the other person. It seems likely to me that drunken Ned talked to Cersei and Lyanna talked about the Lannisters or some House that should be allied with the Starks but wasn't. Something that put their plans at risk. When he knows how much someone else knows; he can spin lies and tell stories; like he does with Cateltyn. If Hoster wasn't at the Tourney; then it's likely that Petyr wasn't either. The show does a good job of presenting Petyr lying here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfnl9owFc84
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 18:42:44 GMT
The question is what happened to Petyr after he went back to the Fingers. He shows up years later as Master of Coin on the Small Council. Varys must have continued to use him in some capacity.
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 18, 2016 19:16:45 GMT
Man, I had a really cogent thought last night about Petyr's connections to Braavos/the Faceless Men and RR, and I'll be damned if I can remember what it was. It had to do with the ADWD tidbit about the FM accepting a child as payment.
I'm also dying to know what exactly Petyr's father did to make Hoster Tully so indebted to him that he would take on this son of a very small house AT LEAST ten years after the WotNPK. That's some debt. Was this really a voluntary foster situation, or a hostage one like Theon with Ned? If the latter, another mark for revenge against the Tullys.
Random: Although Lysa confessed to the poisoning of Jon Arryn, there's a good chance that the part about Cersei having a hand in it was true. Littlefinger and Cersei schemed together.
Petyr and Sansa's visit to the Fingers....odd feel to it. Like the whole thing was staged...a mummer's show. The greeting as they disembark from the boat sounds scripted; from later in the chapter: "Farther inland a dozen families lived in huts of piled stone beside a peat bog. "Mine own smallfolk," Petyr said, though only the oldest seemed to know him." Supposedly they had no word that Littlefinger was coming, but somehow still have fruit, honey, wine on hand.
Petyr serves Sansa wine to calm her nerves - an Arbor vintage. Arbor Gold is associated with lies. He then gives her the preprepared story of Alayne Stone's origin: "I . . . I could call myself after my mother . . . " "Catelyn? A bit too obvious . . . but after my mother, that would serve. Alayne. Do you like it?" "Your mother was a gentlewoman of Braavos, daughter of a merchant prince. We met in Gulltown when I had charge of the port. She died giving you birth, and entrusted you to the Faith. I have some devotional books you can look over. Learn to quote from them. Nothing discourages unwanted questions as much as a flow of pious bleating. In any case, at your flowering you decided you did not wish to be a septa and wrote to me. That was the first I knew of your existence."
Is there truth to that story?
Petyr tells her about the Kettleblacks. "Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him."
Then this: "When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played. "I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands."
Oh my. The entire time he's eating a blood orange. "Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger... He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. "I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean." He split the "fruit" in two and drank the blood without getting his hands dirty.
Lysa arrives to wed Petyr and brings a septon and singer. Marillion the bard tries to force himself on Sansa. "You're drunk. "I never get drunk. Mead only makes me merry. I am on fire." His hand slipped up to her thigh. "And you as well." "Unhand me. You forget yourself." "Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born."
Possible show parallel: Atop the Great Pyramid with Daenerys, Barristan reminisces about the times he spent with Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. He recalls that he accompanied Rhaegar whenever he left to Red Keep to sing to the smallfolk with his harp. Barristan guarded Rhaegar and collected the money, which they would donate to another minstrel, an orphanage, and once they used their earnings to get very drunk.
Marillion the bard is later framed for Lysa Arryn's murder.
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 18, 2016 19:26:01 GMT
GRRM did say that we could figure this out in the very first book... When did he say that? And figure what out?
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Post by Ser Duncan on Aug 18, 2016 19:41:26 GMT
I know you guys have been associating Petyr with Varys, and how they might've been working together or Petyr learning from Varys, etc.
I don't think you've got the right guy here. I think if Petyr was in communication with anyone during the time before the rebellion it was with Pycelle. Think about it, Varys was giving Aerys good advice while Pycelle was working against Aerys, for Tywin.
Petyr's injury from Brandon put him in close contact with Maester Whatsname. We know maesters talk with each other all the time. Petyr gets and gives info to this maester, he pass things along, and that's how Brandon finds out about Lyanna. Pycelle sends someone to Brandon based on the info Petyr gives him about Brandon being the hot head of the family and willing to cut up a young boy for the insult of wanting to take his betrothed away from him. I don't think Brandon's rep was well known in the south.
That's my brain wave for the day.
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 20:46:28 GMT
"Rather too well," Littlefinger said. "I still carry a token of his esteem. Did Brandon speak of me too? Did you get this line mixed up? Why would he mention the wound before bringing up Brandon's name?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 20:52:24 GMT
GRRM did say that we could figure this out in the very first book... When did he say that? And figure what out? There's an SSM that says all the clues of Jon's parentage are in the first book. I'll have to dig for the SSM unless someone else has it?
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 20:54:29 GMT
Oh my. The entire time he's eating a blood orange. "Lord Petyr cut the blood orange in two with his dagger... He tilted his chin back and squeezed the blood orange, so the juice ran down into his mouth. " I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers," he complained, wiping his hands. "Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean." He split the "fruit" in two and drank the blood without getting his hands dirty. Blood oranges, or even oranges in general symbolize betrayal and mistrust. They can also symbolize female genitals, and the "splitting" of the orange is highly suggestive.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 21:07:08 GMT
When did he say that? And figure what out? There's an SSM that says all the clues of Jon's parentage are in the first book. I'll have to dig for the SSM unless someone else has it? It's my recollection that this was not an official GRRM quote/SSM, but a quote from either Ran or Linda. Digging to find it.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 21:08:51 GMT
Did you get this line mixed up? Why would he mention the wound before bringing up Brandon's name? This is out of the book, unless I typed it incorrectly. His whole discussion with Ned is sarcastic. Of course, Ned would know about Brandon slicing Petyr's belly; which Petyr mockingly calls Brandon's token of esteem.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 21:10:19 GMT
Blood oranges, or even oranges in general symbolize betrayal and mistrust. They can also symbolize female genitals, and the "splitting" of the orange is highly suggestive. I didn't know that. That makes him creepfinger even creepier.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 21:20:19 GMT
Did Brandon speak of me too? "Often, and with some heat. I have some confusion here - not your fault min but you reminded me of something that always bothered me. Cat was betrothed to Brandon at 12 years old, circa 276/277. Petyr would have been 9ish at the time. This is when he supposedly got drunk and bedded Lysa? Because when the date of Cat and Brandon's wedding was announced, Petyr was 15 - it's quite a while later. /random timeline confusion
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 21:44:14 GMT
Barristan guarded Rhaegar and collected the money, which they would donate to another minstrel, an orphanage, and once they used their earnings to get very drunk. Marillion the bard is later framed for Lysa Arryn's murder. This is one of the best anti-RLJ proofs I've ever read. He split the "fruit" in two and drank the blood without getting his hands dirty. I'm going to go ahead and surmise that this means Petyr actually did sleep with Cat (as well as Lysa).
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