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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 18, 2016 22:13:40 GMT
They can also symbolize female genitals, and the "splitting" of the orange is highly suggestive. Indeed! And the idea that Baelish "split" the "blood" orange fruit with a dagger but kept his hands clean makes me think he may have been behind a rape without actually performing the deed himself. Merge that with the scenario of Marillion the drunken bard trying to rape Sansa and the same bard later taking the fall for her aunt's murder..... Tasty! Cat was betrothed to Brandon at 12 years old, circa 276/277. Petyr would have been 9ish at the time. This is when he supposedly got drunk and bedded Lysa? Yeah, I touched on this somewhere in this thread or the Fisherman's Daughter trying to work out when Lysa got pregnant. It makes no sense. People think that Hoster sent Petyr away from Riverrun because he had soiled & dishonored Lysa, but according to the tale she didn't sleep with him a second time until he was recovering from his nearly mortal gut wound. ? So he is a step away from death but he still manages to get it up and knock her up??? okaaaay. Then, even if he had managed that feat, Hoster sent him away two weeks later....Lysa would not even have known if she was pregnant, much less Hoster. So, that either can't be why he was banished from Riverrun, or Lysa got pregnant earlier than that. And got fairly far along, as it sounds like she knew her miscarried child was a boy. The only other time we hear they had sex was the night of Cat's betrothal, when Lysa was 10 and Petyr 9. ??
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 18, 2016 22:16:49 GMT
I don't think you've got the right guy here. I think if Petyr was in communication with anyone during the time before the rebellion it was with Pycelle. Think about it, Varys was giving Aerys good advice while Pycelle was working against Aerys, for Tywin. Very possible. And we know Pycelle loathes Varys, and it is sounding like Petyr has been in cahoots with the Lannisters for a long time, even if he's merely using them for his own purposes. My crackpot is that they are both working together under a Faceless umbrella, but I'm equally happy with the idea that Varys is exactly what he says he is - a person working for the good of the realm, with just several more layers to the onion that we haven't peeled back yet.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 22:28:13 GMT
Yeah, I touched on this somewhere in this thread or the Fisherman's Daughter trying to work out when Lysa got pregnant. It makes no sense. People think that Hoster sent Petyr away from Riverrun because he had soiled & dishonored Lysa, but according to the tale she didn't sleep with him until he was recovering from his nearly mortal gut wound. ? So he is a step away from death but he still manages to get it up and knock her up??? okaaaay. Then, even if he had done that, Hoster sent him away two weeks later....Lysa would not even have known if she was pregnant, much less Hoster. So, that either can't be why he was banished from Riverrun, or Lysa got pregnant earlier than that. And got fairly far along, as it sounds like she knew her miscarried child was a boy. The only other time we hear they had sex was the night of Cat's betrothal, when Lysa was 10 and Petyr 9. ?? Sounds like a big pants fire going on. Well Jon Arryn was Robert's hand at KL and Lysa gives herself credit for bringing Littlefinger to KL. She convinced Jon Arryn to let Petyr manage some portfolio and he tripled the earnings. If Petyr was sent back to KL just before Brandon's wedding; then Lyda might have tried something with drunken Petyr before then. Her recollection of things is not very reliable when she's threatening Sansa. The only thing she does say that sounds rational is that her first baby was Petyr's. That's the passage where she gives the recipe for moon team. She may have been fooling around with Petyr before then; but got serious about it just before Brandon's wedding. Perhaps when it was known that Petyr was going back to the fingers as a way of forcing the issue with Hoster. She is somewhat unhinged. I think Petyr's notion that he bedded both Tully girls came on the night when he thought Lysa was Cat and he was too drunk and arrogant to acknowledge his own lie. When someone lies as much as Petyr; eventually you believe your own lies.
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Post by min on Aug 18, 2016 22:36:43 GMT
Very possible. And we know Pycelle loathes Varys, and it is sounding like Petyr has been in cahoots with the Lannisters for a long time, even if he's merely using them for his own purposes. I think this is possible because I also think that Marwyn the Mage was the dwarf measter who served at the Fingers. With that kind of injury; I'm guessing he would still need expert medical care. And who better than someone who opens bodies and studies them. And the irony in this is that I think Marwyn is a bastard son of Tywin as well as Petyr. But I do think that Petyr was born in a brothel in Braavos and was acquired by Varys. One of his little birds. Petyr has knowledge of the dungeons and secret passageways that might only come from Varys. Ned's chapter where he leads him to Cat in the brothel; he takes Ned down unused hallways, jokes about taking Ned down to the dungeons, slitting his throat and closing him up in a tomb; then outside the keep and down a cliff with barely visible footholds. Petyr scampers down them like a monkey. I think Petyr plays both ends against the other at this point for his own advantage. Varys doesn't have control of the little boy anymore and they are at cross purposes now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 22:46:36 GMT
It occurs to me. Know how it always comes up in discussion... at least I bring it up occasionally... that something strange must have motivated Brandon to basically commit suicide by storming into KL demanding that the Prince come out and die? First of all, Rhaegar wasn't even there. If Brandon got the news that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar, why would he think Rhaegar was in KL? Or maybe the news was something else, but regardless, he believed Rhaegar was in KL and Brandon was going to fight/kill him. And again, it was basically a suicide mission. Further, Rickard didn't even try to negotiate/explain things? "Look, Brandon acted rashly, but Lyanna is missing. WTF is going on?" Instead, they both get tortured/fried/boiled. What else was going on there? And who would profit from Brandon getting killed before he was able to marry Cat. Heh. Brandon found out something about that made him go to KL right after the duel with Petyr. Then the Rebellion starts, at some point Petyr sends Cat a letter that she burns, etc, but she was already promised to Ned by then. Ergo Petyr wrote Brandon a letter, and in that letter he lied about something so dire that it ended up with Brandon and Rickard dead. Petyr is the source of the "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna" lie. I'm still reading through this thread,but I love this!
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 23:12:43 GMT
Then, even if he had managed that feat, Hoster sent him away two weeks later....Lysa would not even have known if she was pregnant, much less Hoster. So, that either can't be why he was banished from Riverrun, or Lysa got pregnant earlier than that. And got fairly far along, as it sounds like she knew her miscarried child was a boy. The only other time we hear they had sex was the night of Cat's betrothal, when Lysa was 10 and Petyr 9. ?? Great points! She had to be at least, what, 2-3 months along? Sounds like a big pants fire going on. I'm still reading through this thread,but I love this! jump right in!
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Post by Melifeather on Aug 18, 2016 23:20:30 GMT
Some Pig No Doubt does Petyr have any of Dr Strange's characteristics other than appearance? Like does Dr Strange have a bad side?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 23:22:26 GMT
Then, even if he had managed that feat, Hoster sent him away two weeks later....Lysa would not even have known if she was pregnant, much less Hoster. So, that either can't be why he was banished from Riverrun, or Lysa got pregnant earlier than that. And got fairly far along, as it sounds like she knew her miscarried child was a boy. The only other time we hear they had sex was the night of Cat's betrothal, when Lysa was 10 and Petyr 9. ?? Great points! She had to be at least, what, 2-3 months along? Sounds like a big pants fire going on. I'm still reading through this thread,but I love this! jump right in! I need time to process! What I love about this series is that the possibilities for Littlefingers background. For me it seems as though Petyr is only looking out for himself. It makes me wonder if he would have a higher goal in mind such as a restoration of the Targs or maybe a breakdown of the 7 kingdoms into smaller kingdoms. To quote another series, "some men just want to see the world burn."
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 23:29:32 GMT
I need time to process! What I love about this series is that the possibilities for Littlefingers background. For me it seems as though Petyr is only looking out for himself. It makes me wonder if he would have a higher goal in mind such as a restoration of the Targs or maybe a breakdown of the 7 kingdoms into smaller kingdoms. To quote another series, "some men just want to see the world burn." I agree that there is something much more important going on with Petyr. Why else would GRRM name him Bael-ish or have him quasi-kidnapping a Stark maiden? The reason I get so obsessed with him being the last Reyne is because GRRM decided to make the Rains/Reynes of Castamere a thing in the novels, over and over. And it gives him a fantastic motive. But perhaps Petyr doesn't need much more motivation other than being denied the girl he loves?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 23:42:19 GMT
I need time to process! What I love about this series is that the possibilities for Littlefingers background. For me it seems as though Petyr is only looking out for himself. It makes me wonder if he would have a higher goal in mind such as a restoration of the Targs or maybe a breakdown of the 7 kingdoms into smaller kingdoms. To quote another series, "some men just want to see the world burn." I agree that there is something much more important going on with Petyr. Why else would GRRM name him Bael-ish or have him quasi-kidnapping a Stark maiden? The reason I get so obsessed with him being the last Reyne is because GRRM decided to make the Rains/Reynes of Castamere a thing in the novels, over and over. And it gives him a fantastic motive. But perhaps Petyr doesn't need much more motivation other than being denied the girl he loves? It would for sure be very interesting if he did have these motivations due to revenge for his family. But I agree it would be fitting if all of actions were due in part because he couldn't have the girl he wanted. For me at least it would be also fitting that so much death and destruction could have been prevented. Makes me think of a Helen of Troy situation.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 18, 2016 23:47:12 GMT
Makes me think of a Helen of Troy situation. This is interesting, from the little I remember about Helen of Troy (her beauty, many suitors and oaths to protect her, war as a result etc) this is an apt parallel. Care to expound?
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Post by Some Pig No Doubt on Aug 19, 2016 0:02:19 GMT
Petyr has knowledge of the dungeons and secret passageways that might only come from Varys. Ned's chapter where he leads him to Cat in the brothel; he takes Ned down unused hallways, jokes about taking Ned down to the dungeons, slitting his throat and closing him up in a tomb; then outside the keep and down a cliff with barely visible footholds. Petyr scampers down them like a monkey. These are all things that led me down the "are Baelish and Varys connected?" path. How does Baelish know all this? The big deal was made about Maegor building the Red Keep with all its twists and bends and allowing only Targaryens to know the secrets. And Varys is suspected by many to be a Blackfyre or Brightflame....so what is Petyr? I am trying to ferret out a Targ connection - AND a Reyne connection, or some other family that might have a grudge against the Lannisters. Remember, Baelish says to play the game, often one's actions must contradict one's best interests. What if he is both?
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 0:06:17 GMT
Targ and Reyne? whoa In the cold North, rain turns into snow. Just sayin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 0:07:23 GMT
Makes me think of a Helen of Troy situation. This is interesting, from the little I remember about Helen of Troy (her beauty, many suitors and oaths to protect her, war as a result etc) this is an apt parallel. Care to expound? One of the thoughts that I had was a focus on one person's desires and almost a single minded focus in general on focusing on personal goals/desires while holding less regard for the lives of others or of society at large. I'm not confident on Petyr's love interests besides Cat and maybe Sansa.
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Post by Weasel Pie on Aug 19, 2016 0:10:38 GMT
This is interesting, from the little I remember about Helen of Troy (her beauty, many suitors and oaths to protect her, war as a result etc) this is an apt parallel. Care to expound? One of the thoughts that I had was a focus on one person's desires and almost a single minded focus in general on focusing on personal goals/desires while holding less regard for the lives of others or of society at large. I'm not confident on Petyr's love interests besides Cat and maybe Sansa. Sounds sociopathic/psychopathic? Complete lack of empathy, and Machiavellian to boot. So Petyr is nailing the means, we just have to figure out the ends.
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